2009 candidates
• Harold Baines
• Jay Bell
• Bert Blyleven
• David Cone
• Andre Dawson
• Ron Gant
• Mark Grace
• Rickey Henderson
• Tommy John
• Don Mattingly
• Mark McGwire
• Jack Morris
• Dale Murphy
• Jesse Orosco
• Dave Parker
• Dan Plesac
• Tim Raines
• Jim Rice
• Lee Smith
• Alan Trammell
• Greg Vaughn
• Mo Vaughn
• Matt Williams
His BA was low, and I actually didn't realize it until I wiki'ed it! Johnny Bench was only a .267 hitter and Fisk was .269..Reggie .262..Mazeroski .260...He'll get in
Just tryin to give someone else on the list a chance. Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, Andre Dawson, and Blyleven should get in. Orosco, Gant, Vaughn (x2), and Plesac...not so much
Blylevin's average won/loss record was like 13-11; hardly HOF material. I don't have the #'s handy now, but I'm sure that Ford & Drysdale had much better winning %'s. Ryan threw 7 no-hitters and had more strikeouts than Wilt had 'conquests' ! Bunning ? Sorry, can't come up with anything there.
On this list, if I were laying odds, at least with my 'Top 10;:
- Henderson: Maybe 2 to 1 on the first ballot, but he's even money making it in
- Blylevin: He's getting sentimental support (not from me !), but I'd say he's about 8-1 on this ballot, and 4-1 overall making it
- Dawson: Has a chance here; maybe 3-1 on this ballot. He needs to make it soon with some of the others that will soon be on the ballot
- John: Also running out of chances. Maybe 6-1 on this ballot and overall
- Morris: I think he'll pick up support over the next couple of years; maybe 8-1 this ballot and 4-1 some day
- McGwire: 50-1 now, and unless he "re-cants", he'll be 30-1 at best. Even if he were to "change his story", it'll be tough for him to make it.
-Murphy: His stats are good; he should've spent a few years in the AL as a DH to build up his #'s, er, 'case' more. I bet he may make it in a few years; maybe 6-1 now; 2-1 in future. 2 MVP's are hard to argue against.
- Rice: Speaking of MVP, even if only 1. Likely needed 1-2 more good years to make it; I'd say he's about 5-1 now, 3-1 at best of making it.
-Raines: His #'s are actually good in terms of making it; he just was a very steady, almost quiet player....which almost hurts him now strangely enough. Maybe 4-1 now, but I see him making it in a few (3-5) years
-Lee Smith: If the voters take relievers seriously (which they are starting to), then he'll make it in 4-5 years. I'd say 8-1 now, but perhaps in 6-8 years he may make it in.
That's my 'Top 10'; sorry to any Baines, Parker & Orosco fans out there !
Moving on, could somebody please explain to me how Rice will get elected this year, while Raines will be lucky to get 25%. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all.
His BA was low, and I actually didn't realize it until I wiki'ed it! Johnny Bench was only a .267 hitter and Fisk was .269..Reggie .262..Mazeroski .260...He'll get in
Kind of a terrible comparison... Bench and Fisk were elite catchers, which makes it tolerable to have slightly lower offensive output. Reggie Jackson had 563 HR's, but otherwise had no business being in the Hall anyway, and Mazeroski might have been the least deserving member in the entire HOF.
If you have to use those guys to make excuses for Dale Murphy, then he shouldn't be in.
Renegade says: "Like I said, Blyleven wasn't very good in the postseason. The emphasis was on the 'very', not the 'good'. 11-2 with a 2.2 ERA is very good."
Baloney. You're making the comparison as if Blyleven and Schilling had pitched the same number of games. Schilling in fact appeared in 19 postseason games while Blyleven pitched in 8 -- in other words, well more than twice as many in Schilling's case. Assuming W-L really matters all that much, 5-1 in 8 games compares perfectly favorably to 11-2 in 19 games. And the ERAs are comparable. There's no basis for your suggestion that Schilling was better than Blyleven here. And anyone who thinks Jack Morris was a great postseason pitcher needs to look at his stats: 13 G, 7-4 W-L, 3.80 ERA -- he's got the Kodak moments, but not so hot stats overall.
The reason people are questioning whether Schilling should be in the HoF or not is based on Schilling's regular season stats. If you compare similarity scores, he has three marginal HoF-ers in his top 10: Don Drysdale, Dazzy Vance, and Catfish Hunter. He also has 7 non-HoF-ers: Kevin Brown, Bob Welch, Orel Herschiser, Freddie Fitzsimmons, John Smoltz, Milt Pappas, and Jim Perry -- all Hall of the Very Good, with only Smoltz having any possible chance of HoF election. There's in fact a basis for that questioning.
Blyleven's similars include 8 HoF-ers: Don Sutton, Gaylord Perry, Ferguson Jenkins, Robin Roberts, Tom Seaver, Early Wynn, Phil Niekro, and Steve Carlton -- a strong bunch. And the two non-HoF-ers are in fact ones who may get in via the Veterans Committee down the road, Jim Kaat, and Tommy John. In fact, that's an extremely good HoF case for Blyleven. He belongs in.
More importantly, Rice is in his last year of regular eligibility. He fell only a couple of votes short, and if history holds true, he'll get enough votes this time to go over the top -- it's not unusual for players on the cusp to get a vote boost their last time out. And no player who has gotten 70% of the vote without being elected hasn't made it in sooner or later. He's on the marginal side, but not unreasonable, with 4 second-tier HoF similars (Orlando Cepeda, Duke Snider, Billy Williams, Willie Stargell).
Raines has a number of eligible years left, and I'm hoping he makes it eventually. He too has four second rung HoF similars: Lou Brock, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Enos Slaughter.
Both actually have very reasonable second-tier level cases, and I won't gripe if both get elected.
Keeter wrote: "Blylevin's average won/loss record was like 13-11; hardly HOF material. I don't have the #'s handy now, but I'm sure that Ford & Drysdale had much better winning %'s."
W-L and win% are affected very strongly by how good a team you pitched for, and do not necessarily correlate with how well you pitched. Note well that Ford pitched for the Yankees in their glory years and Drysdale did so for the Dodgers in theirs -- in fact, if they don't have decent win% numbers pitching for such squads, that's a problem. Blyleven however toiled most of his career on mediocre to crummy Texas, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Minnesota, and California teams, and that can (and apparently did) affect his W-L numbers.