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10 Worst NBA Trades of All-Time: Will Shaq To Suns Ever Join This List?

2/7/08 in NBA   |   CriticalFanatic   |   respect

NBA trades have often set organizations back 10 years in progress while sending the other team to pick up bright shinny rings each summer on a regular basis. Sometimes you hardly even notice these moves when they occur, but in retrospect you can't fathom the rationale.

Shaquille O'Neal's trade to the Phoenix Suns has conjured up some very strong opinions and many believe it has the potential to make this list in the future. I still have mixed feelings. Phoenix is taking a considerable risk that Shaq has some healthy playoff games left. But if the Diesel is motivated by winning basketball this could very well end up in another NBA Championship and potentially putting the trade below for inverse reasoning.

With this big blockbuster in mind, here the 10 NBA trades that turned into the biggest busts of all-time.

1. 1996 - Hornets traded Kobe Bryant to the Lakers for Vlade Divac. If you judge success based on the ability to consume two cartons of cigarettes a day and still function athletically, then maybe you don't view this trade as being all that lopsided. On top of Vlade's remarkable lungs, he only played two seasons for then the Charlotte Hornets averaging 11.5 ppg and 8.5 rpg. Kobe on the other hand has averaged 24.8 ppg so far during his Lakers career, won three NBA titles, 10-time All-Star, 9-time All-NBA, 2-time NBA scoring champion, and has several good years left.

Worst.Trade.Ever.

2. 1980 Draft - Celtics traded their 1st overall for Robert Parrish and the Warriors' 3rd pick in exchange for Joe Barry Carroll and Ricky Brown. Boston eventually chose Kevin McHale with that 3rd pick. I'm judging most of these worst trades by the championship success of those players that changed hands. This is a tricky one to add as it wasn't a direct trade, but regardless, Golden State not only botched on Parrish but they also missed badly on their draft choice. Parrish and McHale would go on to win three NBA titles with the Celtics and had 16 All-Star game appearances between the two. Golden State is, well, Golden State.

3. 1998 - Mavericks traded Robert Traylor to the Bucks for Dirk Nowitzki.
Who knows how Nowitzki would have turned out playing for the Bucks all these years, but this remains one of the worst draft day trades of all time. Nowitzki just racked up his 1st NBA MVP award to add to his seven All-NBA teams and seven All-Star appearances. Meanwhile, Tractor Traylor was recently sentenced to three years probation for his role in doing money laundering for a big-time drug trafficker. But hey, at least he's still playing professionally in Puerto Rico. Cockfights > Dallas.

4.
1992 - 76ers traded Charles Barkley to the Suns for Andrew Lang, Tim Perry and Jeff Hornacek. If it weren't for Michael Jordan, this trade could have appeared far worse. Sir Charles' Suns teams were good enough to win at least one title during their time. This was a necessary trade for Philadelphia, but they should have demanded more. The best aspect was a sharp-shooting Hornacek, whom they quickly moved to Utah soon thereafter. The 76ers franchise is one that should never be perceived as a role model when it comes to trading.

5.
2004 - Lakers traded Shaquille O'Neal to the Heat for Brian Grant, Lamar Odom and Caron Butler. We'll just keep this one simple. Shaq won a title in Miami; Grant, Odom and Butler watched a lot of O'Neal in the comforts of their own home. Butler is becoming a stud, which puts more of the onus on the Lakers decisions after this move. In the end, still not a trade that remotely measured up.

6. 1968 - 76ers traded Wilt Chamberlain to Lakers for Jerry Chambers, Archie Clark, and Darrall Imhoff. Someone tell me something Chambers, Clark and Imhoff accomplished after this transaction. You can also factor in the significance of this trade in terms of the NBA's popularity on and off the court. Wilt was a big draw in Los Angeles and in the bedroom.

7. 2000 - Pistons traded Grant Hill to the Magic for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins. What's interesting here we thought this was a horribly lopsided trade in 2000. It remains one in 2008, but for entirely different reasons. Hill would battle through inevitable injuries with the Magic, while Big Ben's career blossomed in Detroit culminating in a 2004 NBA Championship.

8. 2006 - Trail Blazers traded the rights to Randy Foye to the Minnesota Timberwolves for the rights to Brandon Roy. I'm doing some projecting with this fairly recent draft day trade. It probably doesn't belong this high yet, but it'll soon compete with the seven debacles above it. Roy will win at least one NBA title in Portland and represent Trailblazers basketball at many All-Star games to come. Foye will occasionally hit jumpers in Minnesota, likely get traded to a new destination with the same results.

9.
2001 - Bulls traded Elton Brand to the Clippers for Tyson Chandler (and Brian Skinner). I may be slamming my team a little harder than necessary, after all Chandler has developed into a decent complimentary player. But we're talking about Elton Brand, a great player whose talents we might be forgetting about this year while he recovers from a bad Achilles tendon injury. Since Brand left, the Bulls have failed to find a scoring presence in the paint which has kept them from gaining any resemblance of success.

10. 2001 - Rockets traded Richard Jefferson, Jason Collins, and Brandon Armstrong to the Nets for Eddie Griffin. If this was Jason Collins for Eddie Griffin you could have made a case for the trade to be among the contenders. Throw in Richard Jefferson and you've got one of the worst ever.

Also receiving a vote: Hawks trade Dominique Wilkins to the Clippers for 22 games of Danny Manning; Knicks trade two 1st round draft picks for Eddie Curry; Lakers trade Caron Butler to the Wizards for Kwame Brown (will only get worse with time); Warriors trade Mitch Richmond to Kings for Billy Owens; New Orleans Hornets trade Baron Davis to Golden State for Speedy Claxton and Dale Davis; Orlando Magic trade Tracy McGrady to the Houston Rockets for Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley, and Kelvin Cato

If you want to rank the all-time terrible NBA trades yourself, be my guest.
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12/13/11   |   ed7496   |   310 respect

Being a Bucks fan, I have to agree with the Tractor Traylor trade for Nowitski as a total bust, and a perfect example as to why the Milwaukee Bucks wont win much of anything. They have gotten a little better, but DAMN!! Hindsight is 20/20, but for the Bucks it doesn't matter.

12/13/11   |   ed7496   |   310 respect

Being a Bucks fan, I have to agree with the Tractor Traylor trade for Nowitski as a total bust, and a perfect example as to why the Milwaukee Bucks wont win much of anything. They have gotten a little better, but DAMN!! Hindsight is 20/20, but for the Bucks it doesn't matter.

7/28/10   |   koaoak2211

I think the Timberwolves trading Kevin Garnett or the Supersonics trading Ray Allen are worst based on results afterwords

7/28/10   |   big_bad_wolf

The worst trade ever happened in NBA was when Jerry West and Magic Johnson agreed to trade Pau Gasol to Lakers and Kwame Brown to Grizzlies. It's was a BIG MAFIA thing!

7/3/09   |   marksutphin69

what about Pippen traded for Oden Polynice

7/3/09   |   onegoodbrutha

The author must be very young.  How can you overlook the trade that brought Kareem to the Lakers for a fistful of nobodies?  That's EASILY number 2, maybe even number 1.

7/3/09   |   smlbrttn

dfy

7/3/09   |   jamesdramsey

Chief_aka_James wrote:
Way too tired to even bother with a list of my own; but we do agree with the most obvious -- that being Kobe/Vlade #1.

As far as the 'potential blockbuster' of Shaq/Shawn Marion...I really don't see much of any effect this year or next...Suns are still a playoff team, probably get into 2nd or 3rd round, and take a seat. Marion and the Heat finish a crappy season.

Next year; you have to think Miami improves some, but unless they get another big man -- they really won't be going anywhere far. Suns have a chance, but it will be another year to Shaq, and more injuries. I'm sure it will just be that 'meh..whatever' feeling.

After that...Whats to come -- Shaq retires? Marion's shooting and playing time goes down? Not seeing much of anything special on either side of the equation.

How about the Jason Kidd/ Stephon Marbury trade

6/25/09   |   pastordllevy

Memphis traded Pal Gasol to the Lakers for let's see............................N O T H I N G !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2/19/09   |   void3fifteen

Does no one remember that kobe never wanted to play for charlotte?
He demanded a trade almost immediately, saying he wont play unless it was for LA.
http://weritegoode.blogspot.com/2008/03/why-no-one-minds-kobes-sting.html
Divac, obviously, doesnt begin to compare to bryant, but you tell me a better person they could have gotten with a rookies' salary.
Dumb trade, I agree, George Shin is a fucking idiot, but this trade shouldn't reflect stupidity, it should reflect how much of a prick kobe is.

2/19/09   |   Chief_aka_James   |   3307 respect

Sorry kawlidgestudent, but you need to read a little more closely.

"Sir Charles' Suns teams were good enough to win at least one title during their time."

I like to think that I'm "good enough" to be in the NFL, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily true, does it?

And in case you didn't bother to notice, this blog is over a year old..CriticalFanatic isn't even a writer here anymore, so the comment itself was pretty pointless..

and #2 grammar seems to be alright to me - not perfect, but it does make sense -- again, something a year later, I don't think Jason will lose much sleep over it..

1/23/09   |   jayden_s6pak

Chief_aka_James wrote:
Way too tired to even bother with a list of my own; but we do agree with the most obvious -- that being Kobe/Vlade #1.

As far as the 'potential blockbuster' of Shaq/Shawn Marion...I really don't see much of any effect this year or next...Suns are still a playoff team, probably get into 2nd or 3rd round, and take a seat. Marion and the Heat finish a crappy season.

Next year; you have to think Miami improves some, but unless they get another big man -- they really won't be going anywhere far. Suns have a chance, but it will be another year to Shaq, and more injuries. I'm sure it will just be that 'meh..whatever' feeling.

After that...Whats to come -- Shaq retires? Marion's shooting and playing time goes down? Not seeing much of anything special on either side of the equation.

What happen to Vince Carters???? The raptors dont even have the players that were traded for Vince Carter?? Mourning i think played like around 5 games.. Erik Williams stuffed upp... Aarron Williams = Bench warmer and the 2nd round pick was used for a guy playing bball somewhere in the city of Atlantis.. I cant believe the Nets, Toronto trade aint in it..

1/22/09   |   unkleduke

great list, but  i gotta agree with the earlier post that the vince carter trade is one of the worst in history.  the nets got carter, who instantly went back to scoring 23-25ppg.  the raps got:

- alonzo mourning, who refused to report and was paid a massive buy out (3 years left on his contract) so he could join (conference rival) miami and win a championship

- eric williams, who sat on the bench and ate up cap space

- aaron williams, who sat on the bench and ate up cap space

- 2 draft pics, one of which was used on joey graham, who sits on the bench and eats up cap space

So, to sum up: the Raps traded one of the  best players in recent memory who has since played almost 5 full seasons, averaging about 23ppg, and didn't get a single, serviceable player in return.

12/11/08   |   kantwistaye   |   4211 respect

wrote:
Oops.

Yeah.  Wade has been a man on a mission this year.

12/11/08   |   jeremy_king87

What about the Vince Carter trade? He was traded from the Raps to the Nets for Alonzo Mourning ( who didnt play for them and opted to be a F.A. and was picked up by Miami), Aaron Williams and Eric Williams and Two First Round Picks. Only one of these picks was used so far (Joey Graham in 2005). Unless the other pick or Graham turns into a superstar this trade is looking like a major bust for the Raps. Did I mention that he is a Raptor killer, but he hasn't topped his career high in points which was set with the Raps. So maybe he is starting to wind down in his career. 

2/14/08   |   NittanyJon   |   245 respect

Excellent Poll!!! Here is an interesting one that was missed. The Philadelphia 76er's have had their fair share of dark days. Besides the aforementioned Wilton Norman Chamberlain fiasco, here's a doozy from 1986. Let's set the stage. You have Charles Wade Barkley in his prime, easily a top 20 Center of All-Time in Moses Malone, and the first overall pick in the whole enchilada. What does Harold (Nutra-System) Katz do? He makes 2 trades that defy all basketball logic. He trades Moses, Forward Terry Catledge (a flat-out beast of a rebounder) and TWO 1st round picks to the Washington Bullets for Forward Cliff Robinson and Center Jeff Ruland. If you overlook the first-rounders (hard to do), it made a modicum of sense because Katz and Moses had a falling out. But Robinson, although a nice guy, was a border-line stiff and Ruland was coming off Foot-Surgery!!!!! It's like buying a car and not being able to drive it off the lot because of a defective engine. If that wasn't asinine, the Sixers trade that year's 1st round pick (Center Brad Daugherty) to Cleveland for Roy Hinson. Roy was a Sixer killer, so at the time it made a little sense. Katz, after watching Brad hoop it up in his Hungtington Valley driveway, determined he was not all that. Yeah, Howard. The man was a two-time ACC Player of the Year. He must be a stiff!!!  Recap : a grand total of three first rounders and a future HOF'er down the drain. I was vacationing in beautiful Avalon, New Jersey when the news came over the wire. I knew immediately we were screwed for the next 5 to 10 years.

 

 

2/13/08   |   Chachi_Azzhola   |   2 respect

Gotta disagree with #1.  Vlade for Kobe was in their exapnsion infancy and Kobe was a high schooler and somewhat an unknown quantity.  McHale and Parrish for Joe Barry Carroll though?  It hasn't really gotten worse than that yet.  I'd have bumped #6 (The WIlt Trade) up to #2.

Shaq to Suns for Shawn Marion is acceptable risk and doesn't mortgage the future with lost draft picks.  If they are going to get a championship with Nash, it is worth the risk and not a bad trade even if it doesn't work out.

2/12/08   |   Keeter   |   92 respect

wrote:
I thought Donnell Harvey went to Florida? 

Regardless, people were so infatuated with nabbing the next Garnett or Kobe that they ignored obvious deficiencies in players.  I think even Melo's one year at Syracuse has him on a higher plane than LeBron, at least in terms of maturity.  And Wade may be the best of the 3.

Harvey did, for just 1 year....and didn't even start that year.     He needed 2 more years likely to just learn how to play the game.   He basically had a football player's body, and of course was drafted for that 'nasty word' -> "POTENTIAL"

2/11/08   |   kantwistaye   |   4211 respect

wrote:
Bosh barely averages a block a game.  A real joke for a 5.  Plus the 48% FGs.  He's a guard in a Center's body. 

And you're on the bandwagon that claims Wade gets special treatment from the refs.  The numbers don't back it up.  LeBron and Bosh have both attempted more free throws. 

Considering he attacks the basket more than the other 3, though, he deserves the calls.

All of this aside, he has that freaking ring, and that by default makes him the best of the 4. 

So are you amongst the people who say Brady is better than Manning because he has 3 rings?  It makes him the most accomplished (in the team sense, even though that ring belongs to somebody in Dallas), but certainly not better than any player.

2/11/08   |   kantwistaye   |   4211 respect

wrote:
He's a Championship MVP.  It's a horrible year this year but he's taking it in stride.  By far the best leader of the four and a quality individual.  He hasn't found an outside jumper yet but either did Jordan for a couple years.  Wade gets to the rack at will and finishes with regularity.  It's a close, and moot, race between the big 3 from that draft - they're all special.  But putting Bosh above Wade is ridiculous.  Bosh is seriously overrated.

He has far too much of a dependency on the refs.  Thats not basketball to me.  Certainly every star gets a beneficial call here and there, but D-Wade gets that and then some.  Like you said, he has no outside game either.  Of the guys from the top 5 of that year, he is most certainly the overrated one.  I'll take Bosh's near double double every night over Wade's dependency on the ref's calls.

 

Just to clarify my position on Wade... he's a good player, but not as good as some would like to think.  The only way he resemebles Jordan at all is in marketability.  He'd be the best player in quite a few draft classes, but is certainly "only" 4th best in his.

2/11/08   |   kantwistaye   |   4211 respect

wrote:
I thought Donnell Harvey went to Florida? 

Regardless, people were so infatuated with nabbing the next Garnett or Kobe that they ignored obvious deficiencies in players.  I think even Melo's one year at Syracuse has him on a higher plane than LeBron, at least in terms of maturity.  And Wade may be the best of the 3.

You had me until you got to Wade... hes the 4th best player from that draft class.

2/11/08   |   Keeter   |   92 respect

Flousc wrote:
I am pretty sure what Tyson is doing now has nothing to do with what he did with the Bulls. When they made that trade, Brand was a beast and Chandler was clueless as to how to play the game.

True......Chandler is yet another example of someone who jumped to the pro's without having a clue as to how to play the game, let alone how to prepare for one.    Perhaps my biggest complaint with all of the 18-year-olds going straight to the pro's is the simple fact that these guys have been coddled & cuddled all their basketball lives; that no one (coach, etc.) DARE criticize them.    So, they basically come into the pro's without any clues about fundamentals, team basketball, or in most cases maturity.

 

Now, sure there are exceptions.    Everyone will point to Kobe, but many people forget that his dad was a player, so Kobe had the advantage of that upbringing & understanding (at least, to a point).     Garnett was an exception too, but he bounced around to different high schools (South Carolina, Illinois), and had to basically 'prove' himself over & over.      There are exceptions to every rule & situation.     And, you know what, if 'kids' back in the 60s & 70s coulda gone right to the NBA, there would have been a few that 'succeeded', and many, many more who wouldn't have.

 

Anyone care to argue that the NBA is better off with all of these early entries ?     Think Kwame Brown, Donnell Harvey, Sebastian Talfair, etc., etc., etc., etc.......would've been better players & better prepared for the NBA with some college ?

 

2/11/08   |   Keeter   |   92 respect

Ahem......what about the deal between the New Orleans Jazz (yes....N.O. !) and the LA Lakers in 1976, when LA sent Gail Goodrich to N.O. for a future draft pick. 

 

That 'future draft pick' turned out to be the #1 overall pick in 1979.     Now, who did LA take that year.....hmmmmmm....some guard out of Michigan State......hmmmm.......    lol

 

Oh yeah.....MAGIC JOHNSON !!

 

Pretty good deal for LA, huh ?!?!     

 

2/7/08   |   Flousc

wrote:
Maybe that was the case in Chicago, but now he's a Top 5 Center in the West while Brand is broken down.  Don't let sour grapes taint the current reality.

The Bulls are by far the worst team in the league in terms of shooting - they could use his 61% FGs right about now.

I am pretty sure what Tyson is doing now has nothing to do with what he did with the Bulls. When they made that trade, Brand was a beast and Chandler was clueless as to how to play the game.

2/7/08   |   kantwistaye   |   4211 respect

Flousc wrote:
Being a Bulls fan, that Brand trade was ridiculous. Chandler is a decent role player and nothing more.

A decent good role player that they compounded the problem with by trading him.  Paxson and Skiles were/are probably the most over rated GM/Coach combo in the league.

2/7/08   |   Flousc

Being a Bulls fan, that Brand trade was ridiculous. Chandler is a decent role player and nothing more.

2/7/08   |   Jubanator14   |   367 respect

nypersianprince wrote:
they didnt give up anything becuase they never had kobe.  you have to look at just like everybody else at the time looked at it- nobody said "oh my goodness, what did the hornets just do!".  Ask any of the premier analysts and they would agree.. if vlade divac was in the draft, he would have been top 10- think of it that way.  that was what the hornets were thinking.   its a wierd situation, i agree but not a real trade if you know what im saying.  it wasnt a shocker, it was understood and the only option to do.  The editor of this blog wanted the hornets to force kobe to play for them?

The editor of this blog wanted the Charlotte Hornets, a team that doesn't exist anymore, to force Kobe to play with them back in 1996?

That makes absolutely no sense.

2/7/08   |   kantwistaye   |   4211 respect

nypersianprince wrote:
they didnt give up anything becuase they never had kobe.  you have to look at just like everybody else at the time looked at it- nobody said "oh my goodness, what did the hornets just do!".  Ask any of the premier analysts and they would agree.. if vlade divac was in the draft, he would have been top 10- think of it that way.  that was what the hornets were thinking.   its a wierd situation, i agree but not a real trade if you know what im saying.  it wasnt a shocker, it was understood and the only option to do.  The editor of this blog wanted the hornets to force kobe to play for them?
(Edited by kantwistaye)

Well then you'd have to argue that no trade that involves draft picks or draft day deals are bad trades.  That to me, is just not true.

 

As for your second point, yes.  It can be done, just look at what Milwaukee did this past summer (they even took on the Chinese government.)

2/7/08   |   nypersianprince

they didnt give up anything becuase they never had kobe.  you have to look at just like everybody else at the time looked at it- nobody said "oh my goodness, what did the hornets just do!".  Ask any of the premier analysts and they would agree.. if vlade divac was in the draft, he would have been top 10- think of it that way.  that was what the hornets were thinking.   its a wierd situation, i agree but not a real trade if you know what im saying.  it wasnt a shocker, it was understood and the only option to do.  The editor of this blog wanted the hornets to force kobe to play for them?

2/7/08   |   kantwistaye   |   4211 respect

nypersianprince wrote:
you guys really dont know facts- how can you put the Charlotte trade as #1?  LOL, if you recall Kobe entered the draft stating specifically that he would not play for any team other than the lakers.   Nobody picked him until #13 i think, which was the hornets and they got quality players in return.  They could not have picked anybody else better at the #13 spot. 

The only reason the Hornets pick him was because Jerry West wanted him.  The trade was set up specifically to be Kobe Bryant for Vlade Divac.  So that how you can put it as #1.  Charlotte gave up a future Hall of Fame top 10 player of all time for just a solid run of the mill center.

2/7/08   |   nypersianprince

you guys really dont know facts- how can you put the Charlotte trade as #1?  LOL, if you recall Kobe entered the draft stating specifically that he would not play for any team other than the lakers.   Nobody picked him until #13 i think, which was the hornets and they got quality players in return.  They could not have picked anybody else better at the #13 spot. 

2/7/08   |   kantwistaye   |   4211 respect

wrote:
WOW no kevin garnett to celtics? I mean the Wolves are one of the worst in the league for records, while the celtics are rocking  

McHale did extremely well in that trade, and as long as Boston doesn't win the title I'd say Minnesota won that trade.  Granted, Minnesota is being dumb and not trying to develop Gerald Green who could've swung the trade heavily into Minnesota's favor.

2/7/08   |   spankyc14   |   14 respect

I like this list...two big changes, imo:

-the Pau Gasol Lakers trade is somewhere in the top 5, assuming Kwame Brown doesn't drink some magic potion, or JCrit makes a giant leap.

-I wouldn't put the Lakers-Heat Shaq trade anywhere on this list, because a) Shaq and Kobe weren't getting along, so there was urgency and neccessity surrounding getting something done vs. not moving Shaq, and also because Shaq had a 1-2 year lifespan in Miami, whereas Lamar Odom will be a key part of the Lakers title run in 09. 

-Also, I haven't done the research, but I'm 100% sure that Golden State was the butt of at least one trade between 1994-2004 that should be on this list.

2/7/08   |   CriticalFanatic

wrote:
WOW no kevin garnett to celtics? I mean the Wolves are one of the worst in the league for records, while the celtics are rocking  

I think it's still too early as Al Jefferson could very well be the next Garnett. TWolves did this knowing they weren't going to get immediate returns. I actually think it was a decent trade on Minnesota's part and in three years it should pay off.

11/30/-1   |  

(Edited by RenegadeLG)

My nomination - Vancouver trading a future first round pick to the Pistons in exchange for Otis Thorpe in 1997.  Because that pick ended up being the 2nd overall in 2003, that has the potential to be one of the worst trades of all time.  I still believe it is, although it's overlooked because Detroit wasted the pick on Darko.  The Memphis Grizzlies could have Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade or Chris Bosh right now.

2/7/08   |   kantwistaye   |   4211 respect

(Edited by kantwistaye)

Shaq to Phoenix may not end up on this list because its not going to cause them fall off the face of the world and miss the playoffs, although Steve Kerr deserves that for being so stupid.  The Suns will make the playoffs, and depending on the match-up, probably lose in the 1st round.  The saddest thing about this trade, to me, is that they gave up on everything that was fun and good about basketball.  They, and the Warriors, were the best thing the NBA had going, and now they gave that up.

2/7/08   |   Chief_aka_James   |   3307 respect

(Edited by Chief_aka_James)

Way too tired to even bother with a list of my own; but we do agree with the most obvious -- that being Kobe/Vlade #1.

As far as the 'potential blockbuster' of Shaq/Shawn Marion...I really don't see much of any effect this year or next...Suns are still a playoff team, probably get into 2nd or 3rd round, and take a seat. Marion and the Heat finish a crappy season.

Next year; you have to think Miami improves some, but unless they get another big man -- they really won't be going anywhere far. Suns have a chance, but it will be another year to Shaq, and more injuries. I'm sure it will just be that 'meh..whatever' feeling.

After that...Whats to come -- Shaq retires? Marion's shooting and playing time goes down? Not seeing much of anything special on either side of the equation.