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9/11/08
Francisco Rodriguez Is About To Break The Saves Record. But What Does A Save Really Mean?
K-Rod About To Tie A Meaningless Record
Quick question:

Who has the record for the most holds in one season?

Oh, you say you don’t care because it’s a meaningless statistic? Ding, Ding, Ding!!! We have a winnnnnner!!! You are absolutely correct!!!

We’re a society thriving to glorify a record of convenience. What is with our passion and collective obsession with records? No one cares about meaningless statistics. Or so it seems…

Francisco Rodriguez is knocking on the door of a record – most saves in a season. The record was established by the “legendary” Bobby Thigpen of the Chicago White Sox way back in 1990.

I remember 1990. I remember Bobby Thigpen. I remember him as the “record breaker” just a year after reliever Mark Davis won the Cy Young award. And I remember them both as Phillies middle relievers. I also remember when Thigpen went to Japan. Let’s face it, during the late 80’s and early 90’s baseball was in love with “statistics” and “records” more than such indiscriminate numbers like team “wins” and “losses”.

Numbers can be made to say whatever you want them to.

Remember, it was our passion for “record” numbers that led to the “Steroid Era”. Chasing these feats of glory is exactly what led to devaluing those very statistics.

Jerome Holtzman died this year and it was just in time. He brought the save into this World and left this World just before we found the motivation to completely devalue it. When he invented the Save, it wasn’t uncommon for relief pitchers to enter a game after 5, 6 or 7 innings of a starter’s effort to pitch 2, 3 or 4 innings to complete the game and save the team’s bullpen for another day. Holtzman had no idea that Tony LaRussa would later spit on the concept of relief pitching and help devolve pitchers into “specialists”.

Quick Question:

Who was the saves leader in a season before record holder Bobby Thigpen?

Don’t know? The answer again is “Who cares?”

Why do I say that? Because in 1990 when Bobby Thigpen set the new record – NO ONE CARED!!! There was no internet, everything wasn’t the greatest thing ever and people had enough sense to realize “Hey, if Bobby Thigpen can set that record, it’s not that great of a record”.

What is a save, really?

By vague definition it’s a measurement to calculate a pitcher’s ability to maintain a lead over the last three innings given a small lead. But what does it really mean?

It means his manager and team put him in a prime position to do EVERY pitcher’s job – to get outs.

In other words, it means about as much as a game winning RBI. It’s based on a faction and environment of processed opportunity.

Thigpen finished his MLB career with a “whopping” 201 career saves. He had 568 and 2/3 innings pitched in his career and a 31-36 record to show for it. In contrast, that’s a bout 2 hefty seasons from a #3 or #4 starter nowadays.

Frankie Rodriguez surpassed Thigpen’s career record tonight with his 202nd career save and no one said a peep. He also did it in 144 less career innings.

Why? Because saves are a load of bunk.

Where does Trevor Hoffman – the all-time saves leader – register amongst the all-time pitchers?

Hoffman’s 984 career IP are about two seasons of Cy Young in his prime, Trevor Hoffman’s career 1,054 K’s are roughly 3 of Nolan Ryan’s seasons of his prime. Hoffman’s 56 career wins are ten less than his losses (66).

What is impressive is Hoffman’s 2.79 career ERA – good enough to put him around 97th all time. That’s certainly far less impressive than Mariano Rivera’s 2.29 career ERA – about a half a run per 9 innings less.

Hello? Saves are a joke! How is a “save” valuable when managers have found a way to completely devalue its purpose? How many relief pitchers pitch two or even *GASP* three innings anymore?

Consider this: If Frankie Rodriguez, Bobby Thigpen or Trevor Hoffman played on teams that were truly good, the games would be won by more than three runs and they’d NEVER get a save opportunity! Saves depend on a team being “just good enough”…

The answers:

Most Holds in a season? Scott Linebrink and Tom Gordon – 36

Who held the saves in a season record before Thigpen? Dave Righetti - 46

Call me when someone gets 58 blown saves! Or 37 Holds. Until then …. Yaaaaawn.
31 comments
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9/11/08
1
Excellent post. K-Rod isn't even one of the 5 best closers in the AL right now (Rivera, Papelbon, Soria, Jenks, Nathan), nor is he even the best reliever on his team (check out Jose Arredondo).

Congrats to him on picking up a bunch of an arbitrary stat, more based on your team's ability to win close games than anything else.

9/11/08
2
Somewhere Bobby Thigpen weeps.

9/11/08
1
Call you when someone gets 58 blown saves?  That's quite possible the way Solomon Torres is pitching for the Brew-crew.  He's one of the sorriest excuses for a pitcher I've ever seen.  He's not a closer, he sucked as a starter, and he's never come close to being "good."  The only reason he won't get 58 blown saves this year is because he doesn't have enough games left in the season to hit the mark.

9/11/08
0
He was out of the MLB for 4 years, and he's had 1 good year since, that coming with the Pirates in 2003, but even then his record was 16-7 with an ERA of almost 5!  His career ERA of 4.25 is laughable.  His first stint in the big leagues never produced a season ERA of less than 4.03.  Also during that time he had 2 good records with the Mariners, but both years his ERA was 5.44 and 6.00 respectively!  I don't doubt he's older than what he's listed as, which is 36, but he's never been a solid pitcher.  I watched the guy play for the Bucs for the better part of 5 years, and never saw any consistency from him.  I wouldn't be surprised to see him blow a few more for Milwaukee before October, and if they plan on making the playoffs and going far into the postseason, they're going to have to start realizing that Torres is not a closer.

9/11/08
1
How are Rivera and Papelbon any more overrated than K-Rod? Mo's got an ERA that is a full point lower, and has only blown 1 save all year. Papelbon also has a significantly lower ERA, and has walked 1/4 as many hitters in just as many innings.

And Nathan's ERA is still 1.05, so I'd say he's still doing ok, overall.

The only thing that Francisco Rodriguez has over other closers is sheer number of save opportunities. Look at the numbers... he's not that great, compared to his peers.

9/11/08
0
That's a nice thought. Not a whole lot of factual basis behind that, but sure... he's tenacious. Personally, I prefer to look at it a little more objectively, and use a little more concrete reasoning. If you compare his performance to Rivera's, for example, you could argue that he HAS faltered.

K-Rod has 23 more saves than Rivera, but also has had 28 more opportunities. That's VERY average. I don't think that he should necessarily be praised simply for having more save chances than everyone else. That just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

By the way... Rivera has also pitched just as many innings. That's another thing... a lot of closers are expected to come in for the occasional 2-inning save. But not K-Rod. He averages less than an inning per appearance. Sorry, not impressed. His team has set him up for success, and he has done adequately. There's nothing "great" about that.

9/11/08
0
Well all saw what happened to Thigpen after he 58 saves in 90. Could the same happen to K-Rod? No matter he will get paid next year

9/11/08
1
Don't get me wrong... I'm not trying to bash K-Rod. I'm only saying that his "accomplishment" is a bit overrated, and there are better guys out there who do the same thing.

9/11/08
2
Pat wrote:
Don't get me wrong... I'm not trying to bash K-Rod. I'm only saying that his "accomplishment" is a bit overrated, and there are better guys out there who do the same thing.
That's the thing, though; is the accomplishment really being overrated by people? The save is a baseball stat, however flawed, and it's natural that people pay attention to a saves record chase. Still, I don't think the majority of people in baseball or the media are going crazy over the chase. Lee's obviously the favorite to win the Cy Young; it seems like K-Rod would be getting more mention if people were really hyping up the saves record.

Besides, I'm not sure that Papelbon and Rivera don't already get more credit than K-Rod. Again, it's natural for people to pay attention a record chase; but paying attention to K-Rod's chase isn't equivalent to acting like he's the best thing since sliced bread.

9/11/08
1
blipper21 wrote:
That's the thing, though; is the accomplishment really being overrated by people? The save is a baseball stat, however flawed, and it's natural that people pay attention to a saves record chase. Still, I don't think the majority of people in baseball or the media are going crazy over the chase. Lee's obviously the favorite to win the Cy Young; it seems like K-Rod would be getting more mention if people were really hyping up the saves record.

Besides, I'm not sure that Papelbon and Rivera don't already get more credit than K-Rod. Again, it's natural for people to pay attention a record chase; but paying attention to K-Rod's chase isn't equivalent to acting like he's the best thing since sliced bread.
I think we'll find out when the Cy Young voting comes out. I've heard some people say that if he breaks the record, then he deserves it. In my opinion, that's insanity. He deserves to be voted no higher than 8th, if you ask me. If he is anywhere in the top 5, even, then his accomplishment is officially overrated.

9/11/08
0
(Edited by blipper21)
Pat wrote:
I think we'll find out when the Cy Young voting comes out. I've heard some people say that if he breaks the record, then he deserves it. In my opinion, that's insanity. He deserves to be voted no higher than 8th, if you ask me. If he is anywhere in the top 5, even, then his accomplishment is officially overrated.
Agreed. K-Rod does not belong in the top five. The hard thing is, starters other than Lee may get undervalued in the voting because of how strong the case is for Lee being the best starter in the AL, resulting in K-Rod (and other relievers?) being overvalued in the voting. 

9/11/08
1
Thigpen ended up 4th in Cy voting and 5th in MVP in 1990. Thigpen also pitched 89 innings, whereas K-Rod has 62.2 through today...

9/11/08
2
Francisco Rodriguez was NEVER a Giant.  He was signed by the Angels as an amateur free agent in 1998.

9/11/08
1
(Edited by ML31)
It's not anonymity of Thigpen for why no one cares about the save record.  Who the heck was Roger Maris in 1961?  But that record made a mediocre player famous.  The reason no one cares about the save record is because the save rule as it is written makes it stupidly easy to get saves.  It's like saying all foul balls count as home runs.  Pitchers can come in with 3 run leads, give up 2 runs and STILL get a save.  It's pathetic.   And worse yet, there is the clause that says no matter what the score, any pitcher who pitches the final 3 innings "effectively" gets a save.  The save rule enabled a player with a terrible season (4-5  65IP 77H 5.07ERA) to have one shining stat in that line.  45 SAVES!   Joe Borowski, Cleveland Indians 2007.  And he is not alone.

Saves are the most worthless of the standard player stats.

9/11/08
0
I just realized that you probably were referring to Nathan.  But the way you structured your response made it look like you were talking about Rodriguez.

Sure, the Nathan trade was a bad one for the Giants.  But that hardly makes them the worst front office in baseball.  This front office brought the fans a pretty darn good team in '97 and 2000-2004.  3 division titles in 7 seasons.  And a team that finished 1st or 2nd 8 years in a row.  There are a lot of teams that would LOVE to have that success instead of what they had over that same time span.  The Rox being one of them.

9/11/08
0
ML31 wrote:
I just realized that you probably were referring to Nathan.  But the way you structured your response made it look like you were talking about Rodriguez.

Sure, the Nathan trade was a bad one for the Giants.  But that hardly makes them the worst front office in baseball.  This front office brought the fans a pretty darn good team in '97 and 2000-2004.  3 division titles in 7 seasons.  And a team that finished 1st or 2nd 8 years in a row.  There are a lot of teams that would LOVE to have that success instead of what they had over that same time span.  The Rox being one of them.
You're right, they don't have the worst front office in baseball.  Until proven otherwise, that (not so) prestigious title belongs to the Pirates.

9/11/08
2
ML31 wrote:
It's not anonymity of Thigpen for why no one cares about the save record.  Who the heck was Roger Maris in 1961?  But that record made a mediocre player famous.  The reason no one cares about the save record is because the save rule as it is written makes it stupidly easy to get saves.  It's like saying all foul balls count as home runs.  Pitchers can come in with 3 run leads, give up 2 runs and STILL get a save.  It's pathetic.   And worse yet, there is the clause that says no matter what the score, any pitcher who pitches the final 3 innings "effectively" gets a save.  The save rule enabled a player with a terrible season (4-5  65IP 77H 5.07ERA) to have one shining stat in that line.  45 SAVES!   Joe Borowski, Cleveland Indians 2007.  And he is not alone.

Saves are the most worthless of the standard player stats.
Ummm. Roger Maris was the reigning AL MVP and two time All-Star coming into 1961. He was well known for his power and hardly a nobody. Thigpen was a total scrub whose only All-Star appearance was his "magical" 1990.

The better statement would have been - What happened to Roger Maris AFTER 1961??

9/12/08
1
MannyStiles wrote:
Ummm. Roger Maris was the reigning AL MVP and two time All-Star coming into 1961. He was well known for his power and hardly a nobody. Thigpen was a total scrub whose only All-Star appearance was his "magical" 1990.

The better statement would have been - What happened to Roger Maris AFTER 1961??
Well, you are correct. The record was set at the height of his career.  I will take back the mediocre player part.  He was more like a serviceable player who had three good seasons.  But nowhere near a star guy.  Thigpen, like Maris, set a record during is best years in the bigs, and for a time was a serviceable reliever.  I personally do not put much stock in All Star Appearances.  All that means is either you were liked by the fans or you had a good 1st half.  Plus, when Maris was an All Star, there were two ASGs a season.  Extra chances to make a squad.

The MVP award has been known to go to guys who had a great season who never backed it up after that as well.

9/12/08
1
"If this record is such a meaningless accomplishment why is it that no one has broken the record in 18 years or whatever ?"

No one has gotten anywhere near as many save chances as K-Rod. There are a slew of guys who convert saves more efficiently, but none of their teams happen to play as many close games as the Angels. It has nothing to do with K-Rod at all. There are dozens of other pitchers in the league who could do the same. Most of them are starting pitchers.

9/12/08
0
I mean giving the guy a save in a 7-4 win? Give me a break. The save is the most overrated stat right now. Now if these guys were like Rollie Fingers or Goose Gossage, who actually pitched more than 1 inning then it would be something to boast about.

9/12/08
1
danny_n94 wrote:
I mean giving the guy a save in a 7-4 win? Give me a break. The save is the most overrated stat right now. Now if these guys were like Rollie Fingers or Goose Gossage, who actually pitched more than 1 inning then it would be something to boast about.
The save rule was written when 3 inning saves actually took place.  The best relievers would come in to bail out the starter in the 7th (perhaps) and finish the game out.

The way relievers are used today makes the save rule as writtne an antique.

I think there is a HUGE difference between saving the game and closing games out.  The one inning save of more than a one run lead is a "close" in my book.  But the game was never really in any great peril of being lost.

9/12/08
0
ML31 wrote:
The save rule was written when 3 inning saves actually took place.  The best relievers would come in to bail out the starter in the 7th (perhaps) and finish the game out.

The way relievers are used today makes the save rule as writtne an antique.

I think there is a HUGE difference between saving the game and closing games out.  The one inning save of more than a one run lead is a "close" in my book.  But the game was never really in any great peril of being lost.
I agree, thats why I dont believe that "closers"should be eligible for the Cy. Closers are essential to the way the game is played, but the save rule needs to be changed or tweaked. Its a joke nowadays

 
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