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1/13/09
Jim Rice In? Tim Raines Out? I Don't Get It
The Hall of Fame Voters Got It Wrong, and Here's Why
It's been my signature literally since the day the 2009 Hall of Fame ballot was released, because I knew this was coming. As I said then, "Can anyone explain to me how Jim Rice will get elected to the HoF this year, while Tim Raines won't come close? I just don't get it."

Well, that's exactly what happened. Jim Rice received 76.4% of the vote and was elected (that's 7 votes above the threshold, for those counting). Tim Raines, meanwhile, received just 22.6%, which is actually slightly lower than his total last year, his first year of eligibility.

To be honest, I have little recollection of seeing Raines, and none of Rice. I'm just not old enough. So, why do I feel this result is an outrage? Because as the numbers pan out, Raines was the superior player.

Let me point out here that I have nothing against Jim Rice himself, and I congratulate him on his induction. That doesn't change the fact that the primary arguments for him don't really hold water.

First, there's his career stats: .298/.352/.502; 2452 hits, 382 HRs, 1451 RBIs, 1249 runs, 128 OPS+

Not bad by any stretch, but there is a significant caveat here. Rice benefited significantly from Fenway Park. A look at his career home and road splits show this.

Home: .320/.374/.546 (.920 OPS)
Road: .277/.330/.459 (.789 OPS)

That's a career 131 point difference in OPS, much of it in Rice's specialty, slugging. While players will almost always have an advantage at home, this is a near Coors-like advantage. The much maligned for having a home park advantage Matt Holliday has only hit 56 points more of OPS at home than on the road in his career. Rice was not the only Red Sock of that era to have a big advantage. Given that his road performance is merely a bit above average, it's a problem.

Of course, the big argument for Rice is that he was the "most feared" hitter of his time, and frankly, this is a load of crap. For this, I'll just copy the argument I made last year.

In theory, “most feared hitter” should equal the best hitter, or close to it. From 1977-1979, this was true. After that though, Rice finished in top five in OPS just once in 1983. 1983 was also the only other year he finished top five in homers, total bases, and slugging. While Rice was good during the other seven seasons he was “most feared,” those four years were the only seasons where he was truly at the top

Again, if Rice was the “most feared hitter,” wouldn’t he have been intentionally walked a lot? In his career, the most times Rice was intentionally walked in a season was ten. Rice only ranked in the top ten three times.

To flesh out the IBB numbers, Rice ranks tied for 179th in career IBBs. This is less than such luminaries as BJ Surhoff, Von Hayes, Ed Kranepool, and Chris Speier, among many others. That doesn't exactly constitute fear in my eyes.

Finally, there's the argument that Rice led the AL in runs, RBIs, homers, htis, slugging percentage, and total bases from 1975-1986. That's all true, and that's great. However, as Joe Posnanski noted last year, a big reason for that was becuase Rice had a lot more at-bats that anyone else in that period. Only four others players were even within 1000. It's easy to have the most counting stats if you have the most at-bats.

Add it all up and while Rice was a fine player, there's not reasonable doubt to conclude the Rice did not deserve his election into the Hall of Fame.

On the next page...the case for Raines.

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1/13/09
5
Excellent case for Tim Raines, no doubt he is deserving of a place in Cooperstown. What I dont understand is why Andre Dawson is getting slighted.  While Jim Rice had a career average 15 points higher, Dawson had more homeruns, more RBI's, stole over 300 bases and was an 8 time gold glove winner.  They both won a MVP award but Dawson won his playing for a team that finished last in the division.  Dont get me wrong, Rice is deserving of a place in the Hall but so are guys like Raines, Dawson and Bert Blyleven.

1/13/09
5
Excellent case for Tim Raines, no doubt he is deserving of a place in Cooperstown. What I dont understand is why Andre Dawson is getting slighted.  While Jim Rice had a career average 15 points higher, Dawson had more homeruns, more RBI's, stole over 300 bases and was an 8 time gold glove winner.  They both won a MVP award but Dawson won his playing for a team that finished last in the division.  Dont get me wrong, Rice is deserving of a place in the Hall but so are guys like Raines, Dawson and Bert Blyleven.

1/13/09
1
I think you may have a case as far as Raines being a Hall of Famer, but not in lieu of Jim Rice. Your right about Rice having more at bats during that period, but career wise Raines had over 600 more at bats than Rice. Im not the best at making cases for anyone, but can you hold the At Bats stats against Rice? He only played 16 seasons against Raines 23. I would think that would be a testament to Boston's offense during that time period? (ps, im not a boston fan either) Also, with more at bats during the years mentioned above and still being able to hold a BA of over .300 is pretty good to me...correct me if i'm wrong...

1/13/09
0
 I do think suffers from playing the prime in his career in Montreal. It's become a forgotten time.

Andre Dawson agrees.

1/13/09
1
(Edited by 18packabs)
I think you can make a case for all of these players. The "Hawk" and Raines are deserving as well. But if comparisons are going to be made just on totals, then lots of others come into the mix. I think Season averages should come into play. For example if Dave Kingman would have played for 25 years he would have 600 Homers and 3,000 hits. Does that really make him a Hall of Famer? As long as guys like I said earlier, like Kirby Puckett are voted in, everyone of the aforementioned should be shoe ins, and the flood gates are opened.

1/13/09
1
I don't think the voters "got it wrong" necessarily.  Rickey Henderson was a lock to get in, although the notion nobody gets unanimous consideration is still ridiculous to me.  I agree with some of the Montreal sentiment.  Other than Gary Carter, who went in as a Met anyway, the legacy of the Montreal Expos is pretty much forgotten.  It's rather sad.

I do think Raines eventually gets in and hopefully Hawk as well.  As base stealing becomes less and less a part of the current game, those who mastered the craft will be appreciated more.  We'll see.

1/13/09
1
I would rank Raines higher than Rice, myself.  But I still don't think either should get in. 

In my mind, the best thing Rice has going for him is that he played his whole career with the same team.  While that is not a requirement for the Hall, I value such a feat more than his entire batting stats put together.

1/13/09
2
C130FE wrote:
I think you may have a case as far as Raines being a Hall of Famer, but not in lieu of Jim Rice. Your right about Rice having more at bats during that period, but career wise Raines had over 600 more at bats than Rice. Im not the best at making cases for anyone, but can you hold the At Bats stats against Rice? He only played 16 seasons against Raines 23. I would think that would be a testament to Boston's offense during that time period? (ps, im not a boston fan either) Also, with more at bats during the years mentioned above and still being able to hold a BA of over .300 is pretty good to me...correct me if i'm wrong...
I'm saying that everyone noted Rice's "dominance" in counting stats from 75-86, but a large part of that is him having almost 400 at-bats more than anyone else during that period. This is partially due to durability (a plus) and having no one else's prime synch up with Rice's prime. As JoePo says in the linked article:

"And that did it. Suddenly, I could put that stat in context. I mean, yes, Rice had more home runs than Reggie Jackson over that time — but he had 1100 more plate appearances. Yes, Rice had more hits than Rod Carew but he had 1700 more at-bats — that’s three seasons worth. Yes Rice had more runs scored than George Brett, but with about 900 more at-bats, you would HOPE he would score more runs.

Reggie hit more homers per at-bat, Carew had a much higher batting average, Brett scored more runs per game. Etc."

In the end, it's the difference between the raw numbers and their context. If Rice had those exact same numbers in a more neutral park, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Yes, the Red Sox had good offense in Rice's time. He was part of that, but so was Fred Lynn, Dewey Evans, Wade Boggs, etc, aka the guys that were on base all the time and gave Rice the chance to post big RBI totals.

Raines, meanwhile, got the 600 extra ABs due to being able to still play into his 40s. He also had almost (literally 10 off) double the walks Rice, allowing Raines to out career OBP Rice by 33 points (.385 and .352).

1/13/09
1
gearhead wrote:
I'm saying that everyone noted Rice's "dominance" in counting stats from 75-86, but a large part of that is him having almost 400 at-bats more than anyone else during that period. This is partially due to durability (a plus) and having no one else's prime synch up with Rice's prime. As JoePo says in the linked article:

"And that did it. Suddenly, I could put that stat in context. I mean, yes, Rice had more home runs than Reggie Jackson over that time — but he had 1100 more plate appearances. Yes, Rice had more hits than Rod Carew but he had 1700 more at-bats — that’s three seasons worth. Yes Rice had more runs scored than George Brett, but with about 900 more at-bats, you would HOPE he would score more runs.

Reggie hit more homers per at-bat, Carew had a much higher batting average, Brett scored more runs per game. Etc."

In the end, it's the difference between the raw numbers and their context. If Rice had those exact same numbers in a more neutral park, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Yes, the Red Sox had good offense in Rice's time. He was part of that, but so was Fred Lynn, Dewey Evans, Wade Boggs, etc, aka the guys that were on base all the time and gave Rice the chance to post big RBI totals.

Raines, meanwhile, got the 600 extra ABs due to being able to still play into his 40s. He also had almost (literally 10 off) double the walks Rice, allowing Raines to out career OBP Rice by 33 points (.385 and .352).
agreed...

1/14/09
0
(Edited by topper009)
The greatest website ever, baseball-reference, has a very interesting Bill James creation available, it is called neutralizing stats.  What it essentially does is assume everyone played in the same stadium with the same teammates and against the same pitchers.  It is far from exact but a lot of thought and resonable assumptions go into it.  It basically calculates things like if Hank Aaron played on the Rockies in the 1990s he would have finished with over 1000 career HRs, things like that.

If you do this for Rice and Raines, the results are very interesting.
Rice (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/riceji01.shtml)
.290/.343/.489 OPS=.832, 1264 R, 2435 H, 378 HR, 1474 RBI, 59 SB

Raines (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/raineti01.shtml)
.314/.409/.455 OPS=.864 1714 R, 3000 H, 194 HR, 1065 RBI, 968 SB

It looks like if Raines played in Boston and Rice played Montreal Raines would be in today and no one would care that Rice got left out

 
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