Jordan obviously has the edge here, but he did not have the individual players competing against him who are at or near the level of talent that are in the NBA right now.  Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Chris Paul, Paul Pierce, Dirk Nowiztki, etc. just to name a few.  Not to discount anything Jordan did at all, but right now, even though he should have probably 1-2 more MVP's trophies to his name, the level of competition in the league now for that award will make that almost impossible. 

I do think it is pointless to compare Kobe to MJ, but it will inevitably happen well after Kobe retires, regardless of what else he accomplishes.  MJ is number one and on his own tier, but Kobe is at least in the discussion for who is at the top of the next tier.

Also let's not forget about MJ's early retirement. He very well could have 8 rings and 8 finals MVPs.

edited for poor taste (on my part)

I just want to say I did mention that. And I agree, he'd be 8 for 8 in all likelihood.

Hahaha, yes, yes I did.

I'd agree that the NBA is a much more athletic league today and that, top to bottom, the league is more talented now that it was in Jordan's hey day. But MJ did have to deal with entire teams that were built to stop him (Detroit) and he did play in the league with legends like Magic, Bird, Barkley, Ewing, Hakeem the Dream, Stockton, Malone, Wilkins.... so it's not as if Jordan didn't go against talented players in his time too. Sure, some of those guys I just named aren't as athletic as some of the guys on your list... but whatever... that's my argument and I'm sticking to it.

That PQ is from me...ya bastard.  Jordan was no saint himself, having several bouts with a gambling addiction as well as committing adultery while paying the woman hush money to keep her mouth shut.  Thanks to that, MJ recently got divorced from his long-time wife Juanita.  Sticking to on the court accomplishments, Kobe needs to do a bit more to get near the realm that MJ currently and ultimately resides in.

That's a good point, and we also would probably look at Hakeem Olajuwon and the Houston Rockets in a different light as well.

 well for the record - I respect what Kobe has done. I was trying to be funny...and did debate whether or not to put it in there...

I'm going to echo your sentiments. Also Clyde Drexler, David Robinson and Isiah want a say in here too.

No worries, and it was a joke on my part as well.  The thing with being the top guy in the league is that there is more temptation as well as more public/media scrutiny.  How these gentleman act and recover from both in the public's eye and the league's eye is the important factor.  Kobe has repaired his image for the most part, and MJ did long ago as well.  As more and more time passes by, the accomplishments these guys have achieved will make these few negatives disappear.

All very valid and solid points.

.

I know you were but it was still in poor taste on my part. My aim isn't to piss people off (at least intentionally....).

and I completely agree with you on your point about being in the public spotlight - I think there are a ton of athletes who make mistakes and do certain things that just don't happen to get caught b/c they aren't the top in the league. 

Ya you did. I somehow forgot to read that part.

Not to mention the hand check rules and physicality of the game in Jordan's day.  Both great players but there is a reason every great player is compared to MJ.  He is simply the GOAT.

oh my god. how many articles are comparing kobe to mj since the lakers won the championship?? c'mon people just drop it already.

I wish more people would actually look at the stats than throwing out their poorly informed opinion.  See http://www.newsy.com/videos/entitled for an amalgamation of some of the amazing in-depth analysis disseminated to the general populace; mind-boggling.  *shakes head sadly*  Kobe is no doubt a good player; probably even a great one but there is no way he will ever pass MJ, even if he wins another title or two.

i agree MJ and Kobe whatever anyone says Kobe finally won w/out shaq i may not like Kobe but i respect the fact he has done it but we all know(kobe fans too) its MJ regardless his numbers dont lie same for kobe but MJ has the final say so and Kobe still hasn't came close to compare himself to the REAL BLACK MAMBA MJ23

this is my statement and im sticking to it

Let's not forget that Kobe only got this ring playing with Pau Gasol who is arguably the best center in the world curently.  Let's just say if I need to win a seven game series starting today I'm taking Pau over Howard,  Yao or Shaq no question.  Look at the centers that Jordan played with.  Longley, Cartwright, and Will Perdue.  The day Kobe wins his sixth Championship without a dominant center there MAY be a discussion here...

As one who's watched Magic v. Bird, Jordan, and Kobe, the competition isn't even close.  MJ is by far the greatest basketball player to ever play the game.  Jordan didn't just have a facet or two of brilliance, he was the most complete player, and one that played each aspect of the game far beyond what any player in basketball history has ever done.

I think this article and many negative onces toward Kobe are just examples of people who do not like him. Shaq going to the Cavaliers is cheating. The Caveliers were sweeping every team but not Orlando. So Shaq is almost being given another title shot if he goes to the Cavaliers.  Kobe to me had a harder road to another title than Shaq. Shaq is a center and that position is pivotal to most guards, which there are many. Not many as good as Kobe, which is why Shaq won his titles with great guards like Kobe and Wade, which does not diminish them, it just says Shaq is pivotal to a team-strong in the post. Kobe earned his title and saying he should get another one without Shaq to prove something is saying that the writer liked having Kobe to have to earn one without Shaq, now that he has he is bitter than Kobe is free from Shaq so he wants to put him back in that prison. But we all know that Kobe is free now. And Shaq is trying to cheat to get to the title again with Lebron. And how does it help Lebron to win one with Shaq?  He will still have to do the same thing Kobe did and win a title without Shaq. Shaq is just overrated.  He is a great center, but in a way the best piece to most teams need to win a team championship. But Kobe is the great player. 81 points. MVPs heart drive. Kobe is now free from Shaq. I guess now Wade and later Lebron will have to do the same thing Kobe did and win one without Shaq.  Ridiculous.  I thought Kobe was great when he won those 3 titles, and he did win them. Shaq was not winning anything until Kobe matured and started to play well.

One thing I think which people have to respect is that Kobe has won a 4th title, and one without Shaq, and with a team which is not the best really. Odum and Ariza and Gasol are good but not great.  Shaq won a title with Wade who is great. Kobe took very good players and made them exceptional. That is a great player. No doubt. Yes he freed himself from Shaq last night and now he is on his own.  I think he surpassed Shaq. Shaq goes around picking teams he would be pivotal towards. He couldn't even get the Suns in the playoffs this year. I still say,  Shaq did not win a title with the lakers until Kobe matured and started playing well.  It proves that Kobe was pivotal. Kobe won a title with Gasol and Ariza and Odum and Fisher. Shaq could not have done it. Nash is probably better than all of those guys, and Shaq didn't do it with him. I think Kobe passed Shaq and winning another title means he can put Shaq behind him.  Wade and soon Lebron will have to win another someday. And can Lebron win a title with Shaq? Sure.  Lebron almost made it all the way.  Adding Shaq to an already great team who swept everyone to me is cheating. But Shaq gets to pick and choose. Kobe had to make a team out of mediocre players who had guts.

You can make Gasol great but you know he is good, but he did not get anywhere without Kobe.  He is not better than Yao or Howard.  He has a great guy passing to him and involving him. I think people have to give Kobe credit. In someway now Kobe might be underrated.  One thing is for sure. People for years now have been saying Kobe has to win a title without Shaq or he would not be great. Well, he did it last night. So you cannot go back and question it. He won the NBA title. I know people did not want him to win it so they could keep saying he could not win it without Shaq. But he did. So instead of being bitter and trying to take away the win, best thing is to accept it and give him credit. If you can't , then it shows you are more personal about your feelings towards him then about being objective in rating a great player. The finals proved he was great as the other three titles also proved. But he had to win one without Shaq and he did. He now had his legacy free without Shaq and he can try to win a 5th title maybe. I am glad he is free from Shaq. I am sure Shaq hates it.

I think the injustice of the Lakers getting an in-his-prime Gasol from Memphis for the Kwame Brown pu-pu platter pales in comparison to the Cavs getting a 37-year-old Shaq no matter how lopsided the deal ends up being

Kobe can't fill MJ's shoes or probaly his jock strip

This is one of the most annoying things that people say while having a Jorgasm. Maybe that break, after winning the first three championships, was the only reason he was able to win three more. MJ only retired for one whole season then came back towards to end of the next season, where he and the Bulls were eliminated by the Orlando Magic. Then the Bulls brought in Denis Rodman to help them back to the Finals. Without Rodman, the Bulls could not have gotten past Shaq and the Orlando Magic.

I think it's unfair (to Kobe) to compare them, but thinking about their "sidekicks" is interesting.  I think Kobe played with the best "other" player (Shaq), barely edging out Scottie Pippen. 

I hope you are joking. Jordon won all of his titles with a teammate who was known as "the best all around player in the world." MJ never won without the help of some other great players.

Jordan's got him, but it's not by that much. I would love to have seen Kobe play in the offensive era that Jordan dominated. Not saying he would have been as good, but with the defensive mindset the NBA has used over the past few seasons (teams routinely averaged 105, 106 points in the late 80s and early 90s as opposed to around 96 or 97 at best right now), Kobe hasn't really had the opportunity to, well, "be like Mike."

Funny, almost everyone I knew referred to the Bulls as, "the Michael Jordan Bulls"; I haven't heard any reference to the Kobe Bryant Lakers....  Jordan was the Bulls entire offense (allowing the others score when the opportunity arose).  The only time he really needed the other 4 players was for defense.

Overall though, Jordan played with a pretty damn good team.

1992: John Paxson PG, Michael Jordan SG, Scottie Pippen SF, Horace Grant PF, Bill Cartwright C, & BJ Armstrong PG

1996: Ron Harper PG, Michael Jordan, SG, Scottie Pippen SF, Dennis Rodman PF, Luc Longley C, Toni Kukoc SF

Some of the guys aren't world beaters in their own right, but good enough to be voted as two of of the ten teams to be selected as the Top 10 Teams in NBA History.  I'm not saying that this years' Lakers aren't a very good team, but  I don't think they will be voted onto this list when it is added to and reassessed down the line.  And what is most amazing about the Lakers this year, is there is no one you could argue at this point as being a HOFer outside of Kobe.  Gasol, sure maybe if he continues putting up these type of numbers for another 10 years, but everyone knew Pippen was.  But I think the league is always changing, and it is difficult to compare one era to the next.  Inevitably it will happen, but it's not really fair to diminish the greatness of each player or team when the game has changed to dramatically.

ROFL....yea, Jordan made them look better than were.  Pippen went to Portland and was mediocre, Rodman went all over because he wore out his welcome, Horace Grant did nothing without Jordan, and where's Kukoc after Jordan's departure as I never heard of him after that time.....  Sorry, Jordan was a once in a lifetime NBA player; Kobe is good, but not even close to Jordan.

Really good points, Dave.  I think Kobe would have loved to play with Pippen and Rodman, while Michael would have been helped by Shaq and (later) Gasol.  Kobe's place in history is secure, no doubt about it.   

 Plus you have to look at the era the played in. Jordan days was wayyy more tougher than the nba that is being played now, but still he dominated the game and I cannot say  that kobe has dominated his era. 

Kobe needs 2 More Championships, and a couple more pieces of MVP Hardware...Other than that, he's getting pretty close to MJ's legacy! Not there yet, but he's creeping up there over time. Kobe may not win another MVP or FINALS MVP because everyone will say he needs to get his teammates involved more which also means Kobe's PPG will remain lower than Michael...But Kobe could play 6-7 more years and easily pick up 2 more NBA Championships and sneak another Regular Season and NBA Finals MVP onto his reume. Until then, MJ reigns supreme!

If you haven't heard anyone say, "Kobe and the Lakers" or "Kobe's Lakers" or whose team is it "Shaq or Kobe's?" then you don't even follow the NBA. It's got to the point where Kobe Bryant has been criticized night after night day after day by even his own fans for trying to make the Lakers "Kobe's" team. You're just flat out lying or like I said, you don't watch the NBA.

Assumption and innuendo

ok here we go again kobe won't ever stack up to mike. !!!    mike is like the next dr.j as doc was like the next hawlk. like shaq was the next wilt? kobe will just be  kobe a good player when its over for him. top 10 i dont think  so.his stat's for  one dont stack up. but the main thing is he has not done anything great to change the game.dr.j did wilt did shaq did mike did kobe i don't think so it seems that kobe fell between the cracks, kevin garnett changed the game. but kobe just do enough to win the games he play .  when kobe do something to change the game. that will be the point  he will become close to being a great player. and not just a good player sorry  i feel kobe  just a good player. i guess once he is able to improve his stat's during a whole  three nba play-off's year's in a row then he will become a  great nba super star and not just a good nba player

Your never going to get Homer fans west of the Mississippi to agree that MJ is greater then KB. Including me.  Never ever going to happen. So yes greatness is to each his own.

damn it! yeah kobe might have won 4 titles.. MJ is still the greatest.. beat 6 titles black mamba! but take a bow for kobe bryant for having a great season.. He proved something, definitely. Still need to do more, to beat MJ.

i just cannot compare green apple with red apple... they are both from two different.. err.. decade?

to me, MJ was just too special

yeah MJ was just too special.. at least to me ;)

I am not even going to begin to argue this, there is no point. If you don't realize MJ is the best ever, then you really arent worth my time.

its true MJ is and will be the best in basketball :)

yes--he probably will./

It is posts like this that makes any discussion on the topic impossible. Yes, Michael Jordon was, IMO, better than Kobe, but this is almost like watching SNL and the Superfans saying one mini-MJ would beat the Celtics 155-10. Posts like this one are absurd. Kobe Bryant definitely deserves mention in the discussion of best guards of all time.

Can we stop pretending that Jordan was playing with a bunch of stiffs that couldn't have beaten me and 4 other IQ'ers??? The Jordan-less Bulls went 55-27 the season after Jordan left. Hardly a collapse.

Someone mentioned that Pippen wasn't heard from after Jordan. Well, again, it was Pippen that led the Bulls to 55 wins in 93-94. And he only left Chicago after 11 seasons, well on the downside of his career.

BASKETBALL IS VRY NICE GAME?!!!

I LOVE TO LEARNE HOW TO PLAY IT!

^^^
This post, + 1,000,000

Very solid points IlliniBob72.

If Jordan was in his Prime the Players he played against were in there prime and they played Kobe and who he plays with today I think Jordan will and the players he had to play would win you don't forget Miller and a few other players that are great

you are wrong.  Lebron is on a team which swept the two previous series rounds, then came up against a good team in Orlando who had a strong inside man. Lebron's team could have gone on to win the championship, so Shaq would be going on a team which is already championship bound. The Lakers which Gasol went to was not championship bound  From Gasol or Shaq's perspective, Shaq would get a much better deal and an almost guaranteed ring.  Which is not fair.

I do not think putting Shaq in the Cavaliers and then Shaq winning another ring is that great an accomplishment.  Sort of like Biden becoming VP. If you have a great candidate like Obama, most guys as an addition might fit nicely.  Shaq does not deserve it. He could not get the Suns into the playoffs. It is not fair. Kobe worked hard to get the Lakers to win another title.

That should prove that Kobe does not need Shaq.Congrats Lakers players and fans.Kobe should have recieved the season mvp as well as finals mvp.

Nothing to say

gravesdigger say ditto for the most part entertainer have a hard time with tempation though we know Kobe is good but MJ is the man.  I followed Mj in playing with his team while Kobe was the main attraction until recently he began playing team and that is what won the finals!

MJ is the best ever; period; end of discussion. btw DR.J ROCKS!!!

What would have happened had shaq and kobe stayed together....

I understand what your pointed out, but also remember that mj's era have more big man that always want to defend and block him. There's Ewing, mutombo, robinson, mourning, young o'neal, olajuwon, malone, kemp, abdul jabbar, bil walton, moses malone, robert parish,  mchale, barkley, murresan, manute bol etc. They are the best blocker and play physical. For kobe there's old shaq, garnett, howard, ben wallace, duncan, yao ming, camby, gasol, stoudamire, bosh etc. For the likes of lebron, dwade, melo, cp3, pierce, tmac, carter, allen, roy, nowitski, rose, durant,nash etc.  Jordan also have a bunch of best players played againts. The likes of magic, bird, drexler, barkley, isiah thomas, grant hill, penny hardaway, payton, miller, richmond, tim hardaway, stockton. And add for that jordan have a bunch of good defenders that is not center like stacey augmon, michael cooper, ac green, rodman, dumars, payton, starks etc. And kobe, battier, artest, bowen, prince, gerald wallace etc. Just comparing them on my opinion, its up to people if they will accept it or not. Have a nice day and congrats lakers for winning championship, nice job to PHIL JACKSON the real reason for lakers winnings.

READ AND ANALIZE
Jordan:
91 bulls champ,agaainst lakers, opponent magic johnson(hall of famer),finals mvp,jordan with help from  pippen
92 bulls  champ, against blazers ,opponent drexler( hall of famer) finals mvp, jordan, with help from pippen
93 bulls champ, against suns,  opponent barkley (hall of famer) finals mvp, jordan w/ help fom pippen
96 bulls champ,  against sinics, opponent kemp and payton, finals mvp,jordan w/ help from pippen and rodman
97 bulls champ,  against jazz, opponent stockton and malone( hall of famers0 finals mvp, jordan with help from pippen and rodman
98 bulls champ,against jazz,  opponent stockton and malone( hall of famers0 finals mvp, jordan with help from pippen and rodman
Bryant:
2009 lakers champ, against magic, opponent howard( proves nothing yet) mvp,bryant w/ help from pau
I DID NOT INCLUDE 2000, 2001 2002, BECAUZE THAT CHAMPIONSHIP IS FROM THE SWEAT BLOOD AND TEARS OF THE GREAT BLACK SHAQ, He is the mvp that time, just a help from bryant,
so I conclude (my own conclusion) that bryant only have 1 championship from his effort, only 1 championship from his effort, therefore 1 CHAMPIONSHIP FO HIS CREDENTIALS!

All 6 championship rings of Michael Jordan are genuine, bcoz he's d mvp of those rings from hes effort,
in my oppinion, kobe needs 5 genuine rings(be the mvp of that finals to come) to tie MJ, he only have 1, Bryant 4 fingers has only 1 real, 3 are fakes, he just achieved it because of Shaq he is d mvp of that finals,  so Kobe do 4 more! b MVP of 4 finals to come!
beat hall of famers, like magic johnson, drexler,barkley stockton, malone, in finals,AND FOR YOU WHO SAID THAT JORDAN DONT HAVE WORTHY OPPPNENT, THOSE UNDERES!TIMATE THOSE NAMES

i don't think so, kobe is a star in his own right, mj is a legend! he's the greatest! his dad got killed bcoz of it.

lol THERE NO SUCH THING AS A BS CHAMPIONSHIPS you win your a CHAMP OR YOUR NOT KOBE A CHAMP MIKES A CHAMP BUT MIKES WIN LOST RECORD IF FAR BETTER IN THE PLAY OFF FINAL HE WAS PERFECT KOBE LOST TWO EVEN WITH SHAQ EVEN PLAY OFF RECORD PERIOD JORDAN NEVER SCORED UNDER 20 POINTS IN A PLAYOFF GAME A FEET THAT NO ONE WILL EVER GET UNLESS THEY HAPPEN TO BE BETTER THEN JORDAN IT WILL HAPPEN JUST NOT IN THIS ERA OF BASKETBALL, BUT JORDAN IS A CHAMPION LEGITLY AND EVEN KOBE A CHAMPION A 4 TIME CHAMPION ALL LEGITLY YOU THINK IT JUST SHAQ TO BE CHAMPION YOU NEVER WATCH BASKETBALL THEN ITS A TEAM SPORT

lol if Jordan's on his game no one can defend him no matter how many people you use to block him but i think Jordan played with better all stars then what Kobe played Jordan won his Gold with ease and Kobe won his after years and years of defeats

Jordan is the best

kobe is a shadow of jordan.shadows overtake only temporarily. his airness jordan reigns

He's the closest to Jordan I have seen!!! But there is only one Mike!! Mike was unreal on the court!!! Kobe is a BEAST!!!

that cant be men.jordan wins he is basketball but kobe makes basketball what it is

kobe can catch michael jordan but what can i say michael is the greatest basketball player of all time!!

talent-wise...he surely can catch up with michael, but he still has to earn more championship rings.

no one can ever match michael jordan his aireness lead him to the top of what he is right now, they may be some play that kobe did for the sake of his team but only jordan can carry his team toward championship......mj will always remain michael jordan nothing less nothing more!!!!!

Jordan is not the best in the NBA. His years is over. Now that a new and better person like kobe step in, there's no need for everyone to watse their time talkin bout how MJ is still the best. Of course, he may not had lost none of his skills and can still play, but its time for other people to shine. Kobe is one of the best so far, and years down many more will say this too. MJ been playin for years. and so had Kobe, but I don't think that anyone of them is going to give up. Especially Kobe. Therefore, I think that Kobe will outstand MJ and once again make the playoffs. But until then we'll just have to wait and see

i agree mj is the best and kobe it 1 of the top 10 good job

kobe and pau are the best for me " of course coz pau is from barcelona.....

i love chicago bulls wit all my strength n in mind 2 become a star like them

Yeah! but we are not talking bout a team, we're talking kobe and jordan, and their  individual achivementsi ,if our topic are chicago bulls and la lakers, chicago bulls are too  far behind from la's 15 championship banner, bulls only got 6,but all of that 6 championships are from the effort of his airness Michael Jordan, and LA's 15, only 1 of those from Kobe, coz that 3 are from the hardworks of Shaq, He's the main man during that 2000.2001 2002, nba finals(MVP)

Ok lang they win

Adding comment..they work and play for the team.

Adding comment...they try hard to win the game

Adding comment...In the over all they win!!!

I agree with you that Mike a better player but all im saying is that Kobe isn't a bullshit player but look Kobe was Shaqs Pippin and Jordan nor Shaq wouldn't win rings without a second all star but even the Phil Jackson even said Jordan the better player lol so he is the best Judge he coached them both and both Mike and Kobe both didn't win anything until Phil coach them

ok Agree! JORDAN STILL THE BEST!

PROVE! He's just Shaq's Pippen during 2000,2001,2002 finals, so He only have 1 genuine ring on his fingers, 3 are fakes, not included as his credentials in race for greatness with His Airness! those 3 rings from sweat blood and tears of THE GREAT BLACK SHAQ!, (finals mvp 2000,2001,2002)

what? if kobe play in the 80's or 90's the detrioit or knick at that time i dont think he can score 81 points. if you compare him with mj23 i don't think he kobe can beat micheal.

President Barack Obama was asked straight out on Thursday: Kobe or Michael?

As in, who's the best? Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant, a four-time NBA champion? Or the basketball legend to whom he is most often compared, Michael Jordan, who retired as a six-time champ with the Chicago Bulls and is widely regarded as the best player of all time?

"Oh, Michael," Obama answered in an interview with The Associated Press.

"I mean, Kobe's terrific. Don't get me wrong," Obama said. "But I haven't seen anybody match up with Jordan yet."

Obama, a basketball fan who hails from Chicago, is certainly no Lakers hater.

He picked Bryant's team to defeat the Orlando Magic in the finals this year, and he was right.

jordan is the GOD of basketball. kobe beef is just a imitator or a pirated of micheal jordan. that's the truth man. some people here comment about kobe that he is the best but they don't what they are talking about. i'm sorry but its the truth. mj23 is still the best. if micheal jordan and kobe has the same age right now. i don't think kobe can defend mj.

Our economy increased since Mchael Jordan returns to play basketball! - US President Bill Clinton

well i guess now Kobe is MJ , Ron Artest is Rodman, and Lamar is Scottie lol jp hope Artest will make something happen lol

i don't think so...

fortza dinamo

mj already in history that nobody can erase what he did

SOO TRUE...

Whatevs. Michael J s THE BEST!!! Kobe can never beat him.

no he can't ,he has no charisma like my idol,yes its true mike is the best.

Kobe can if he contiues at the pace he already started.....in time he will or may even proceed him eventually.

yawwn i wouldn't hold my breath

i agree dude.... epectus you rock...

maybe

No & No LeBron won't catch him either MJ was a once in a Lifetime Player like Michael Jackson was a once in a LIfetime Performer there will never be@ more like them many will imitate but never ever duplicate what they accomplished in their selected fields

I hope KB24 slows down as I'm a big Michael fan.  I got the posters still hanging up and I think he transcended the game of basketball.  He was the ultimate competitor and refused to lose. Good point about him being 6-0 in the finals, whereas KB is 4-2.  Right now MJ is 3rd on the all time scoring list with 32,292, KB24 is 17th with 23,820 and climbing.  It's going to be close as Bryant can always score.  Having Ron Artest helps his chances a lot as Artest brings the toughness and he's also a good passer which he doesn't get too much credit for.   

Most assuradly so

Jordan's time is past...so Kobe now is the best player in the league!

i love jordan

jordan is a legend. kobe is soon to be

kobe is the best hands down

Your Crazy Kobe isn't even close to Jordan

raider Dave is right KOBE's competition is alot harder that what jordan had to go against. Jordan never played aginsat guys that could jump and run like him. thats why what he did looked amazing. Kobe plays against guys bigger and stronger but he has the skills and the talent to over match them. Just ask the rap tors, knicks, dallas, and all those teams that hes has lit up. KOBE RULES

No player have ever won the championship without good help. You point is entirely invalid.

LOL Your Crazy he played Magic Johnson,   Reggy Miller, Shaq, Charles Barkley, Larry Bird, John Stockton, David Robinson,Hakeem Olajuwon,Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, Isiah Thomas,    These are better All Stars then what Kobe has to play with hands down and Michael Beat these guys in the playoffs and didnt lose to and all star less Pistons team in the finals

we can't compare Jordan with Kobe right now...Jordan already achieve the highest level in term of accomplishments and Kobe still trying to catch up with him...Kobe have a few years to go...Lets just see what can he prove in his remaining years....after Kobe retires maybe we can debate on this...but right now Jordan still on top.

Jordan still No. 1!

Jordan is still the all time Best but Kobe also deserves a spot among the very best

kobe is the best in the league NOW compared to all of players playing right now.  But Michael is the best EVER.  Kobe stop playing as if you can still catch up with what Mike has achieved.  Can't you see we're still talking about Mike after he's retired 6-7 years ago, Kobe's name will just be talked about for days after he retires.    Do you still remember, Mike retired his jersey several times, and the world mourned everytime. 

players in MIke's era were far better and he beat them all.  just compare dream team 1 (almost every player are hall of famers) to the we had last olympics (more athletic but sad to say they have no heart) , compare their average margins againts other countries.  also, every team mike faced in the finals have great players (magic and baarkley, drexler to name a few) and he stood tall, for kobe who? dwight....  nothing more to say    

no 1 and i mean no 1 can beat MJ!. he's the greatiest basketball player of all time and in the whole wide world... and still.. i don't see any one in the NBA has the potential to be like MICHAEL JORDAN.. when just MJ retired and its time for him to let go the ball. that's the only time for other NBA players rose to stardom... but they are just a star. not like MJ.. MJ is a SUPERSTAR!!!

you absolutely right!

jodan will always be king. if he had not retired he would be uncatchable

M Jordan is my idol!

Michael Jordan..........superstar of Basket Ball..........he surely made me love the game. don't think Kobe will......!!!!???

MJ why because who do you think looks up to him Kobe and Lebron. The nba rules are so differnt know.But you can't put lebron in the same catergory. Everybody has differnt positions.

   

kobe has not passed mj but he has the chance to!...why do you act like mj did it all by himself scottie pippen was top 50 nba all-time and dennis rodman was in my opinion best rebounder to ever play....mj had a strong supporting cast just like all championship teams do.  now this is a long shot but kobe can play another 6-7 years and if he can win 4 more championships he will finish with 8....i think that is the only way he can be put above mj! and he can reach that point with development of andrew bynum and solid vetts like artest gasol and odem....so no kobe has not passed mj but it is possible.....i dont know if it will happen but it is possible.

KOBE is the man anytime...

jordan time is over

No need to compare the two. they are from different era. Jordan best of his prime, Kobe un match of his prime.

jordon wil b d greatest...but this season kobe will again get close...its d first time he has rested after d post season........

I can't even reconize Kobe, in the League of "Jordan".

 kobe wont d jordan....thts a no discussion topic...
but atleast he's KOBE.... 
he's still d best n his generation...........and one of d best guards...

KOBE is the best for me......ever!!! keep up the good work! im your avid fan....

Jordan is Jordan, Kobe is Kobe. Nobody can erase the fact that Jordan did win 6 straight NBA championship, winning MVP in all of them. This cemented his status as one of the greatest player to play the game and the best player in my book hehe..On the other hand, Kobe has defined his stature as a clutch player with memorable shots and exciting dunks that netted him 3 NBA championship with the Big Fellah, Shaq O'Neal. The main similarity between Jordan and Kobe is that both assumed leadership role to drive their team to the championship..Jordan did it six times while Kobe showed it in winning the 2009 championship. Its Jordan hands down

 u r correct wit tht statement...i too feel that way....better not compare two of them...both are two of the greatest and jordan being d best....its just that the hatred for kobe for many of his off court antics seems to be seen in the way people see him as a player....thts a bad way 2 judge smene with d class of kobe...

 THere s a gap between generations......u cant n actual compare jordan with magic....
simply because they never played at d same time...one cannot simply make a judgement about one being a better overall player than d other or being a better shooter,, unless had they played together....

There is a difference b/w being one of the "greatest ever" and being "the greatest n ur generation"...the former s wat every player strives 2 achieve.....and probably all those players names that are mentioned n d argument for d greatest player ever can b put n tht former group and not b compared......

kobe has my idol but jordan 1st like me kobe idol is micheal jordan also

The fact of the matter is that jordan is considered the great because of the totality of his career.  team accomplishments, mixed in with his personal accolades won't be matched anytime soon.  that being said, for those who think the talk of kobe and mj is even close, I have a few interesting numbers for you.

AFTER 13 SEASONS FOR KOBE, AND 15 SEASONS FOR MJ HERE ARE SOME CURIOUS STATS:

complete 82 game seasons:
MJ 9   Kobe 3 (after 13 seasons!!!)

Seasons with at least 80 games played:
MJ 11  kobe 5

Seasons with less than 75 games played:
MJ 3   kobe 7

complete seasons as a starter (all 82 games):
MJ 8  kobe 3

seasons with at least 80 games as a starter:
MJ 10 Kobe 5

3000 minute seasons:
MJ 12  Kobe 5  (more durable?)

seasons with at least 1000 field goals made:
MJ 3   kobe 0

seasons with at least 900 field goals made:
MJ 9   kobe 1

seasons with atleast 800 field goals made:
MJ 11 kobe 4   (just as good/consistent scoring?)

seasons with at least 200 turnovers:
MJ 7  kobe 8 (better ballhandler?)

seasons with at least 100 blocks:
MJ 2  kobe 0

seasons with at least 80 blocks:
MJ 3  kobe 0

seasons with at least 70 blocks:
MJ 4  Kobe 0

seasons with at least 60 blocks:
MJ 7  kobe 2 (better defender?)

seasons with at least 200 steals:
MJ 6  kobe 0

seasons with at least 150 steals:
MJ 9  kobe 2

seasons with at least 100 steals:
MJ 12 kobe 9  (again, better defender?)

seasons with at least 3000 points:
MJ 1  kobe 0

seasons with at least 2500 points:
MJ 6  kobe 1

seasons with at least 2000 points:
MJ 11 kobe 6  (again, better/more consistent scorer?)

seasons with at least 600 assists:
MJ 1 Kobe 0

seasons with at least 500 assists:
MJ 2 kobe 0

seasons with at least 400 assists:
MJ 7 kobe 4

Seasons with at least 300 assists:
MJ 12 kobe 10  (better passer?)

Seasons with shooting percentage of 50% or more:
MJ 6  kobe 0   

seasons with shooting percentage of 45% or more:
MJ 13 Kobe 9   (better decision making?)

seasons with win shares of 20 or more:
MJ 2  kobe 0

seasons with win shares of 15 or more:
MJ 10 kobe 2

seasons with win shares of 10 or more:
MJ 11 kobe 9   (better winner?)

Playoffs averaging 40 or more (the real season):
MJ 1  Kobe 0

Playoffs averaging 35 or more:
MJ 5  Kobe 0

Playoffs averaging 30 or more:
MJ 12 kobe 4   (again, better scorer in the clutch?)

Field goal percentage of .50% or more playoffs:
MJ 5  Kobe 0

Field goal percentage of .45% or more playoffs:
MJ 11 Kobe 5    (better in the playoffs?)

Playoffs with 700 points or more:
MJ 1  Kobe 0

Playoffs with 650 points or more:
MJ 3  kobe 1

Playoffs with 600 points or more:
MJ 3  kobe 2

PLayoffs with 550 points or more:
MJ 8  Kobe 2

Playoffs with 500 points or more:
MJ 8  Kobe 3  (notice a trend?)

Playoff Total Points Lakers Threepeat:
     Shaq     Kobe
2001 707      471
2002 487      506 (if you saw shaqs complete stats, you'd see mvp #s)
2003 541      385

Playoff total points Bulls Threepeat:
      MJ      Pippen
1991 529      368
1992 759      428
1993 666      381
1996 552      305
1997 590      365
1998 680      353
Is there any question who carried the larger load for their respective threepeats, or why MJ was the MVP of all six finals?

Now all that said,notice the trend, for every category I have to lower the standards for kobe to come into the conversation. these are season long statistical averages across their careers.  Does kobe have some marks that mj doesn't? yes he does, but they are very few and far between.  The only clear cut category that kobe beats MJ in is 3 pt shooting, and percentage, and even in that, kobe's best year was his rookie year where he shot at .375%... what did MJ shoot that same year from three?.374%.  So again, this conversation of Kobe being in the same stratosphere as MJ really doesn't hold any water.

hell no he cant catch the king

the most complete player in the world during that time was MJ not scottie pippen my friend.  read my earlier post, and compare scottie's contribution vs. shaq's contribution to their respective threepeats.  there is a clear reason why mj was the mvp of all six titles, and shaq was as well.

MJ cannot be equaled by anyone, he revolutionized the way basketball could be played.

That being said, the NBA is a lot more stacked now, and Kobe Bryant has the most complete skill set of any individual player.

Kobe will never reach, match or bypass Michael, because he is the best to play the game and putting him in the hall of fame before Kobe can even get close just reiterate the fact that Michael is still flying, and Kobe is on the ground still trying. I give Kobe his props as being good but great or greatest he's not.

I agree with very word u said because it is the truth
MJ was and is a all star1# he has sat trends for the Kobes that come along
that init self is no match
he learned how to be a teamplayer and he played the game outstanding
he made his teammates all shine he had a great love for the game called basketball
and great respect for other players and the game being played and still do today
there will never be another MJ .
love what u wrote and how u wrote it

In order to win in any game u must play as a team or no matter how many shots u make it won't matter
because one man cannot make a team that is called pride and u are a loser before u became a winner
in any game,
So one must learn the skills of this game to even play it
It is called teamwork because one man cannot bet a team
Kobe is good but he has to learn to play more with his team mates
and that is the truth and have  more respect for the game that is being played
if u respect the game it will have to respect u back MJ learned that is what made him shine
others not himself

don't go saying he would have had 8, the two years you are talking about the rockets were in the finals, and the rockets for the entire time MJ was playing had a winning record vs the bulls. so you can not say the rockets would not still have the 2 championships that they have.

that is one of the dumbest things i have ever read. you say the only way a championship is real is if you have a mvp. come on the mvp is an award that is voted on, which means the most popular player gets the trophy, not the best. the rings on the other hand that is real. if you put jordan on the court all by himself in his championship games and told the other 4 guys to sit on the bench, guess what, jordan loses. one guy can not win a championship, it takes the whole team. so no mater whther shaq was on the team or not koby has 4 rings and they are all real.  

once agin a very dumb post, are you saying that if shaq was on the floor all by him self aginst 5 players from any team he would have won 3 rings????? or if jordan was on the court by him self aginst 5 players from any other taam he would have still won 6 rings??? as soon as you bring up championships you are talking about teams. and as far as rings go koby has 4 jordan has 6. koby is still playing and will will be for at least 10 more years unless he gets hurt. jordan is not playing any more. this means that koby can still win while jordan is done.


the argument is stupid to begin with . and every few years we have the same argument. is MJ better than
Dr. J? is Koby better than MJ? in a few years we will be asking is player "x" better than Koby. we will never know, you can throw all the stats out you want but mj (in his prim) never played dr. j (in his prime). and mj (in his prime) never played koby (in his prime).

no one in their right mind compared dr. j and M.j.  doctor J was never considered the best player on the planet at any one given point.  the only similarity there was athleticism, but nothing more.  now, on your post earlier about mvp being a popularity contest, that couldn't be further from the truth.

Playoff Total Points Lakers Threepeat:
               Shaq     Kobe
2001       707      471
2002       487      506 (if you saw shaqs complete stats, you'd see mvp #s)
2003       541      385

Playoff total points Bulls Threepeat:
              MJ      Pippen
1991      529      368
1992      759      428
1993      666      381
1996      552      305
1997      590      365
1998      680      353
Is there any question who carried the larger load for their respective threepeats, or why MJ was the MVP of all six finals?  Kobe can get all the rings he wants, but he was not the main cog during his first threepeat, and has not had the two way dominance that mj exibited through out his career.  and at this age, his game isn't going to change dramatically so that he will start doing it either.


AFTER 13 SEASONS FOR KOBE, AND 15 SEASONS FOR MJ HERE ARE SOME CURIOUS STATS:

complete 82 game seasons:
MJ 9   Kobe 3

Seasons with at least 80 games played:
MJ 11  kobe 5

Seasons with less than 75 games played:
MJ 3   kobe 7

complete seasons as a starter (all 82 games):
MJ 8  kobe 3

seasons with at least 80 games as a starter:
MJ 10 Kobe 5

3000 minute seasons:
MJ 12  Kobe 5  (more durable?)

seasons with at least 1000 field goals made:
MJ 3   kobe 0

seasons with at least 900 field goals made:
MJ 9   kobe 1

seasons with atleast 800 field goals made:
MJ 11 kobe 4   (just as good/consistent scoring?)

seasons with at least 200 turnovers:
MJ 7  kobe 8 (better ballhandler?)

seasons with at least 100 blocks:
MJ 2  kobe 0

seasons with at least 80 blocks:
MJ 3  kobe 0

seasons with at least 70 blocks:
MJ 4  Kobe 0

seasons with at least 60 blocks:
MJ 7  kobe 2 (better defender?)

seasons with at least 200 steals:
MJ 6  kobe 0

seasons with at least 150 steals:
MJ 9  kobe 2

seasons with at least 100 steals:
MJ 12 kobe 9  (again, better defender?)

seasons with at least 3000 points:
MJ 1  kobe 0

seasons with at least 2500 points:
MJ 6  kobe 1

seasons with at least 2000 points:
MJ 11 kobe 6  (again, better/more consistent scorer?)

seasons with at least 600 assists:
MJ 1 Kobe 0

seasons with at least 500 assists:
MJ 2 kobe 0

seasons with at least 400 assists:
MJ 7 kobe 4

Seasons with at least 300 assists:
MJ 12 kobe 10  (better passer?)

Seasons with shooting percentage of 50% or more:
MJ 6  kobe 0   

seasons with shooting percentage of 45% or more:
MJ 13 Kobe 9   (better decision making?)

seasons with win shares of 20 or more:
MJ 2  kobe 0

seasons with win shares of 15 or more:
MJ 10 kobe 2

seasons with win shares of 10 or more:
MJ 11 kobe 9   (better winner?)

Playoffs averaging 40 or more (the real season):
MJ 1  Kobe 0

Playoffs averaging 35 or more:
MJ 5  Kobe 0

Playoffs averaging 30 or more:
MJ 12 kobe 4   (again, better scorer in the clutch?)

Field goal percentage of .50% or more playoffs:
MJ 5  Kobe 0

Field goal percentage of .45% or more playoffs:
MJ 11 Kobe 5    (better in the playoffs?)

Playoffs with 700 points or more:
MJ 1  Kobe 0

Playoffs with 650 points or more:
MJ 3  kobe 1

Playoffs with 600 points or more:
MJ 3  kobe 2

PLayoffs with 550 points or more:
MJ 8  Kobe 2

Playoffs with 500 points or more:
MJ 8  Kobe 3  (notice a trend?)

Now all that said,notice the trend, for every category I have to lower the standards for kobe to come into the conversation. these are season long statistical averages across their careers (kobe 13 years MJ 15, the averages don't lie).  Does kobe have some marks that mj doesn't? yes he does, but they are very few and far between.  The only clear cut category that kobe beats MJ in is 3 pt shooting, and percentage, and even in that, kobe's best year was his rookie year where he shot at .375%... what did MJ shoot that same year from three?.374%.  So again, this conversation of Kobe being in the same stratosphere as MJ really doesn't hold any water.

let me start off by saying i can not stand Kobe, but the only thing you got right is Kobe is the best player in the league NOW. just like MJ, was the best player in the league in the late 80's to late 90's. just like Magic and Bird were the best players in the late 70's to mid 80's just like Dr. J was the best in the 70's. you get the point. you can not compaire any of them by stats. championships mean you were on the best team, not that you were the best player, all star games and mvp are both voted on, which means you were the most popular, not that you were the best. Mike did not retire his jersy several times, he did it twice, which means he quit on his team once, kobe has not quit on his team. what does all this mean?? nothing, when Jordan was playing everyone said he was the next Dr. J, and when Kobe started everyone said he was the next Jordan. you say people still talk about mike because he was great, you are right, just like Dr. J is still making Dr. Pepper comercials because he was great. unless MJ (in his prime) were to play one on one with Kobe (in his prime) you will never be able to say one is better than the other. If you say Mike is better because he won more championships than Kobe, then Robert Horry must be the best of all time becaue he has 7 rings.    

amen

pippen. rodman, horace grant, all made mike look better as well. you can say pippen went to portland, and houston, and did nothing, and you can talk about all the places rodman went, but i remember mj went to washington and did nothing as well. mj was great because he played on really great teams, jordan was not a once in a lifetime player (unless you are a bulls fan) he was a once in a generation player. the nba game today is much different than the game mj played. back in the mid 80's to mid 90's when mj was in his prime it was almost every game where the scores were well over 100 points, where as today most games are in the 80's to 90's. so how many points would mj score in today's defensive game? or how many points would kobe have scored in the offensive game that mj played in?? there is no way to guess. we can compare the two forever but because they never played each other when they were in there prime the question will never be answered.

one con only hope to be better then the teacher

anybody saying that todays game has less overall points because of defense, does not know basketball.  today's game has overall less points because the players are overall less skilled.  players today are overall more athletic then back in MJ's prime, but the overall skill level is lower.  Look at the shooting percentages of players today, and compare to the shooting percentages back then.  That is the difference in scoring, not defense.  today's "defense' is set up to make it easier for perimeter players not harder.  No handchecking, defensive three second rule, flagrant fouls, blocking lane violations, etc. etc. did not exist in MJ's prime.  what today is a flagrant foul, back then was a normal foul.  So do not give me the  harder defense today song and dance.  rod thorn, president of nba basketball operations is on record saying that the rule changes were implemented to make it easier to score, and open up the game.  the fact is that the generation that grew up watching the magic show time lakers, larry's celtics, and later on jordans bulls got used to players with really great shooting percentages putting up great numbers, and when that slowly started disappearing the league made the changes it has in place today, to make it easier for offenses.  during the mid to late 90's and early 2000's the league saw an influx of high school and one and done college players that physically were ready for the nba, but at a skill level were not.  That is why today teams do not score like back then. period.

here we go agin jordan won his gold with eas and kobe won after years of defeats....are you kidding? jordan was drafted in '84 and did not win his first championship untill '90, that is 6 years of defeats mj had to work hard for his gold just like kobe had to work for his.

jordan did not land on a team with all stars from day one, like kobe did.  and his first championship was in 91, that would be 7 years.  in 90 detroit won the title.  it's becoming apparent to me how much you really know about the game.

that is funny, you do realize president obama is from chicago don't you?? you don't really think he would pick aginst his hometown bulls do you??? oh, and you say kobe would not score 81 in the 80's or 90's aginst the knicks or pistons of that era. i say jordan would not have done what he did aginst todays lakers, mavricks, spurs, rockets, the defence that is played today is much toughfer than what mj faced.

I love it when guys ignore the strong posts, and go after the weak vocabulary and minded posters.  again like I said earlier, anybody saying that todays game has less overall points because of defense, does not know basketball.  today's game has overall less points because the players are overall less skilled.  players today are overall more athletic then back in MJ's prime, but the overall skill level is lower.  Look at the shooting percentages of players today, and compare to the shooting percentages back then.  That is the difference in scoring, not defense.  today's "defense' is set up to make it easier for perimeter players not harder.  No handchecking, defensive three second rule, flagrant fouls, blocking lane violations, etc. etc. did not exist in MJ's prime.  what today is a flagrant foul, back then was a normal foul.  So do not give me the  harder defense today song and dance.  rod thorn, president of nba basketball operations is on record saying that the rule changes were implemented to make it easier to score, and open up the game.  the fact is that the generation that grew up watching the magic show time lakers, larry's celtics, and later on jordans bulls got used to players with really great shooting percentages putting up great numbers, and when that slowly started disappearing the league made the changes it has in place today, to make it easier for offenses.  during the mid to late 90's and early 2000's the league saw an influx of high school and one and done college players that physically were ready for the nba, but at a skill level were not.  That is why today teams do not score like back then. period.  If you think today's basketball is tougher on offensive players, you obviously have not been watching the league very long.

o.k. jordan has scored more points than kobe, what that shows me is kobe is a better team player than mj was. kobe makes the players around him better and trust them to score, where mj kept the ball for himself. it also shows me that kobe plays in an era where there is more defence being played than when mj played. if the nba teams today played defence like the teams did when mj played kobe would score much more.

again, better teammate?  mj has three seasons over 500 assist, and one over 600, kobe's highest assists in a season are 481, and that was in 03.  last year, the new and improved kobe bassed the balanybody saying that todays game has less overall points because of defense, does not know basketball.  today's game has overall less points because the players are overall less skilled.  players today are overall more athletic then back in MJ's prime, but the overall skill level is lower.  Look at the shooting percentages of players today, and compare to the shooting percentages back then.  That is the difference in scoring, not defense.  today's "defense' is set up to make it easier for perimeter players not harder.  No handchecking, defensive three second rule, flagrant fouls, blocking lane violations, etc. etc. did not exist in MJ's prime.  what today is a flagrant foul, back then was a normal foul.  So do not give me the  harder defense today song and dance.  rod thorn, president of nba basketball operations is on record saying that the rule changes were implemented to make it easier to score, and open up the game.  the fact is that the generation that grew up watching the magic show time lakers, larry's celtics, and later on jordans bulls got used to players with really great shooting percentages putting up great numbers, and when that slowly started disappearing the league made the changes it has in place today, to make it easier for offenses.  during the mid to late 90's and early 2000's the league saw an influx of high school and one and done college players that physically were ready for the nba, but at a skill level were not.  That is why today teams do not score like back then. period. l 399 times, so wrong again.  sure doesn't look like you hate kobe to me, at least not from your posts.  again,

really, mvp is not a popularity contest then explain how Dirk got the mvp 2 years ago when his mav's got bounced in the first round of the playoffs. you can throw out all the numbers you want at the end of the day the mvp trophy is voted on. when david robenson won his mvp hakeem's numbers were much better and like i said when dirk won his mvp he did not even make it out of the first round of the playoffs.

because that year, though kobe had better numbers, his team was not as good as dirks during the regular season.  that dallas team had the best record in the league by far. and though they got bumped in the first round, dirk still had an outstanding season, for the team with the most wins.

the year that dirk won mvp... dallas 67-15, that same year, kobe and the lakers where 42-40, 2 games over .500.  The year david robinson got mvp, san antonio was 62-20, and hakeem and the rockets had a record of 47-35.  again, best player on the best team usually gets the nod for mvp, if you've been watching the league more than 5 years, you'd know that.  And finals mvp is also the best player on the best team, as shown in my chart below (even though I only show scoring, not overall contribution, but you get the picture). 

Playoff Total Points Lakers Threepeat:
            Shaq     Kobe
2000   707      471
2001   487      506 (if you saw shaqs complete stats, you'd see mvp #s)
2002   541      385

Playoff total points Bulls Threepeat:
             MJ      Pippen
1991   529      368
1992   759      428
1993   666      381
1996   552      305
1997   590      365
1998   680      353
Is there any question who carried the larger load for their respective

threepeats, or why MJ was the MVP of all six finals?

no, i don't like kobe, but i have to give him credit for being one of the best players in the game today. i did like mike when he played and i am in no way trying to take anything from him. the point i am trying to make are to show how you can not compair the two eras of the game. and to your point about the rules changes, and talent level being the reason for the drop in points per game. you are right i have been watching basketball for over 25 years i started when i was a kid watching pistol pete, and calvin murphy. and yes the shooters back then were better than today, but you can not tell me that defence does not play a part in it. a wide open shot is much easer to hit than one where you have a hand in your face. the toughfer dfence played today does play a part in the lack scoring. 

and i have not ignored the strong post to go after the week post. i have commented on many post. i will say it agin you can not compare players based on championships, or mvp's, because championships are given to teams, not indivual players, mvp's  are given to the most popular, you can not argue that because like i wrote in a previous post dirk won an mvp after losing in the first round of the playoffs. if you try to compair on championships and mvp's then you would be saying that robert horry is a better forward than both carl malone and charles barkley because he has 7 rings while barkley and malone combined have 0 rings.

o.k. sue me, i said mj got his first ring in 90 not 91, the post i was commenting on said that kobe had to work for his first ring after years of losing while mj got his with ease, i said 6 years and it was 7 years of losing for mj the point is the same. mj did not win his gold with ease he too went thru years of losing before he tasted gold. like i said i am not a kobe fan, i am a rockets fan, i like yao, but he is no hakeem, that being said i can't stand the die hard bull's fans who think mj walked on water. yes he was great when he played but kobe is great now.  

i have been watching for more that 5 years and i know that the best player on the team with the best record usually wins the mvp, that being said the mvp trophy is suppost to be given to the best player in the league, not the best player on the best team. yes the spurs had a better record than the rockets but the best player did not win the mvp that year the spurs as a team was better than the rockets but hakeem was a better player than robinson. goes to my argument that mvp does not mean you are the best player. just like the allstar game is not filled with the best players in the league it is filled with the players that get the most votes. if kobe playes for 15 more years and wins 5 championships would that make him better than mj? after all mj only has 6 rings and if kobe gets 5 more that would give him 9. is horry better than mj? mj has 6 rings and horry has 7 rings. i am not saying kobe is better than mj, and i am not saying mj is better than kobe, that question can never be answered because mj in his prim will never play kobe in his prime. mj was the best of his era and kobe is the best player today, period.

again, the award is not for the best player in the league, it's not called the TBP award, it's the most valuable player award.  and the reality is that it has been given to the best teams best player almost since the creation of the award.  If it was a best player award, MJ would have received 8-10 mvp awards when he was in his prime, and thats not how it worked out.  The award is usually calculated by which team is the most successful, then the journalists who vote look at who is most responsible for that teams success, hence, the most valuable title of the award.  The year kobe got his mvp, the lakers had the second best record in the league, behind the celtics, but no one player in the celtics put up the numbers to justify getting the award, so kobe got it, because he was the best player on the second best team, hence the primary reason for that teams success.  you can look at the mvp winners for the last 20 to 25 years, and you will find that most of them won it when their respective teams lead the league in wins. the award, by the way, is the regular season mvp, so it really doesn't matter if your team gets bumped in the first round, or if you win it all, like dirk a few seasons ago.  again, for someone who says he can't stand kobe (which I find hard to believe) you are advocating a whole lot on his behalf.  the reality is the years that kobe has been the best baller on the planet, his teams where not in positions to win.  the first year without shaq, l.a. missed the playoffs completely.  steve nash's two mvps, his team had records of 62-20 in 04'-05' and 54-28.  Those same two seasons, the lakers finished behind the clippers in the standings.  was kobe the best player in the league? yes, but he was not an mvp candidate, because his teams unfortunately where not elite teams in the league at that time. 

that is all fine and good, except when every one says this person is the best player and is does not matter what sport you are talking about weather it be football, basketball baseball, the 2 stats that are allways thrown out is how many mvp's that player has and how many all star / pro bowl games that player has. and both of those stats have nothing to do with how good the player is. i have seen players make an all star roster in baseball who have not even played the first half of the season due to being hurt. i am well aware how the mvp trophy is given out. so if you are going to get on me for saying that the mvp is not given to the best player, then to be fair you should also reply to all the post that are trying to use the number of mvp trophys mj has to reason why he is the best player of all time.

simply put, the reason mj is considered the greatest of all time is not the accolades alone.  it is the unique mix of accolades and team accomplishments that he holds that garners him that title.  He dominated the league on an individual level for almost ten years in a fifteen year career, kobe has dominated the league on an individual level for the past 4 years, in a 13 year career.  MJ dominated in scoring, and defense, leading the league in scoring 10 times, and steals 3, and recording the only back to back 200 steal 100 block season on record to date.  Kobe has led the league in scoring twice, and steals never, and has never recorded a 200 steal 100 block season.  Add to that the amount of team success the bulls had, and the individual output of mj, and thats how you get to the label of GOAT.  Wilt chamberlain has better season totals than mj in a few of his seasons, but he did it for 7 years, MJ did it for 10.   Wilts scoring in the playoffs was atrociously bad, at 22.1 compared to mj's 33.1.  MJ's bulls went 6-0 in the finals, russel has 11 rings with the celts, but other than rebounding, he never lead the league in any other category.  I can go on for days, but there really is no point.  Kobe in terms of skill level is the closest in this era to MJ, but he has not had the two way impact that MJ had (only player to win defensive player of the year, and mvp in the same year) or do it for as long as mj did it.  The closest to that type of domination was Wilt, and he, unfortunately for him, was a perennial loser in the playoffs.

I what to be like mich.

I agree!  Everyone does forget about who played back then against Jordan and who Kobe has to play against now! The level of competition now is much greater than it would have been in the Jordan era.

they pla.yed against each other he still got spanked. iif mj hadnt stop playing for two year do the math on that.

preach bother teach

LOL that's funny no one could Defend Jordan but you take 10 All Stars that Jordan played with and you take 10 All Starts that Kobe played with hands down who Jordan had to play with are much much much better Talent defense one thing Kobe and and Jordan has in common if they are both playing there A game no Defense could stop them. As for Kobe though he won a Ring he not even on the best team in the league I say if the Celtics are back to there a game they are a better team then the Lakers hands down

 MJ v.s. KB. In my opinion Michael Jordan was a gr8 shooter but a gud player. It was scottie pippen that kept them in alot of games of a watered down league. Plus no matter how gud u r, u cant be considered gr8 when ur a ball hog. until 2yrs ago Kobe Bryant was a ball hog himself until he learned how 2 trust his team an the league of da 21st century is much betr than da league of da 20th century top 2 bottom an Kobe rises 2da challenge wit against defenses designed 2 stop him an make others hurt them an Kobe still getn his numbers. when jordan played ball a team wit a 40-42 record in the West made da playoffs an da East teams wit worse records than that made da playoffs. now in da West winnin 50 games doesnt guarantee  a playoff birth. In short, Kobe may not get 6 or more rings but he can certainly take pride that da league is far betr than when Jordan played. my Opinion, Kobe 2yrs ago beame a betr player than Jordan

you mean kobe learned to share more? thats funny cause last season when he "learned to share" he had 399 assist, and when he was a ball hog, like you said, he dished out 481 assist one season. so I don't see how he's sharing the ball more now. any how, you can keep kobe, we'll see in a few years after he retires what he actually does or not. I know one thing for sure, MJ dominated the league for ten seasons, at age 31 kobe has never done that, and I don't think he's going on a ten year dominating stretch at this point of his career.

 So wat ur sayin is Kobe didnt make da Lakers a betr team by trustin his team? His assist may have been down but if u look @ Laker stats frm last yr an da yr b4 his teammates shots were actually up while his was down. Jordan dominated da league cuz there was really no1 there that could stop him in a watered down league. in da league of 2day Kobe is dominating da league wit Carmelo, Lebron, Dwayne Wade, an tons of other big name Stars! who did Jordan have? Magic an Bird past their prime, Karl Malone an John Stockton(gud but not gr8 defenders)an an old team like da Pistons? Most teams was either 2 old 2 keep up wit him or just not that gud defensively. Of course he will dominate! A young gud player will win out v.s. an old gr8(Magic Johnson or Bird)almost every time.

lol, you kobe fans are so edgy.  what I'm saying is that the lakers got better as a team, not that kobe started sharing the rock more, numbers don't lie.  his best assist numbers by far (by at least 80 or so assist) are when you say he was a ball hog.  Oh, and by the way, MJ's best individual seasons where during larry and magics prime, when the celtics and lakers where winning titles in the eighties.  but apparently mj only played scrubs, lol.  thats why kobe gets so much flack, it's not him, it's his fans who are willing to tear down someone else's accomplishments to make him look better.  the fact remains before mj, during his time, and after, there hasn't been a player that dominated for that long in the history of the league, if you think thats something to laugh at, fine by me, but kobe hasn't done it either.  People want to rest the significance of what mj accomplished after 2 or 3 mj "like" seasons by kobe, and thats just sad.  and then they say things like mj had scottie.  but forget to mention that kobe had shaq.  You want to talk about a players greatness, then look at the numbers below.  Kobe has been playing for more than a decade, and his fans act like he's  a little kid that just came into the league and started dominating.  the fact is, kobe has shown us his best, and though his best is remarkable, it didn't eclipse what mj showed during his best.  A handful of games scoring more than mj  (without hardly any rebounds, assists, steals or blocks I might add) does not an entire career make.
AFTER 13 SEASONS FOR KOBE, AND 15 SEASONS FOR MJ HERE ARE SOME CURIOUS STATS:

complete 82 game seasons:
MJ 9   Kobe 3

Seasons with at least 80 games played:
MJ 11  kobe 5

Seasons with less than 75 games played:
MJ 3   kobe 7

complete seasons as a starter (all 82 games):
MJ 8  kobe 3

seasons with at least 80 games as a starter:
MJ 10 Kobe 5

3000 minute seasons:
MJ 12  Kobe 5  (more durable?)

seasons with at least 1000 field goals made:
MJ 3   kobe 0

seasons with at least 900 field goals made:
MJ 9   kobe 1

seasons with atleast 800 field goals made:
MJ 11 kobe 4   (just as good/consistent scoring?)

seasons with at least 200 turnovers:
MJ 7  kobe 8 (better ballhandler?)

seasons with at least 100 blocks:
MJ 2  kobe 0

seasons with at least 80 blocks:
MJ 3  kobe 0

seasons with at least 70 blocks:
MJ 4  Kobe 0

seasons with at least 60 blocks:
MJ 7  kobe 2 (better defender?)

seasons with at least 200 steals:
MJ 6  kobe 0

seasons with at least 150 steals:
MJ 9  kobe 2

seasons with at least 100 steals:
MJ 12 kobe 9  (again, better defender?)

seasons with at least 3000 points:
MJ 1  kobe 0

seasons with at least 2500 points:
MJ 6  kobe 1

seasons with at least 2000 points:
MJ 11 kobe 6  (again, better/more consistent scorer?)

seasons with at least 600 assists:
MJ 1 Kobe 0

seasons with at least 500 assists:
MJ 2 kobe 0

seasons with at least 400 assists:
MJ 7 kobe 4

Seasons with at least 300 assists:
MJ 12 kobe 10  (better passer?)

Seasons with shooting percentage of 50% or more:
MJ 6  kobe 0   

seasons with shooting percentage of 45% or more:
MJ 13 Kobe 9   (better decision making?)

seasons with win shares of 20 or more:
MJ 2  kobe 0

seasons with win shares of 15 or more:
MJ 10 kobe 2

seasons with win shares of 10 or more:
MJ 11 kobe 9   (better winner?)

Playoffs averaging 40 or more (the real season):
MJ 1  Kobe 0

Playoffs averaging 35 or more:
MJ 5  Kobe 0

Playoffs averaging 30 or more:
MJ 12 kobe 4   (again, better scorer in the clutch?)

Field goal percentage of .50% or more playoffs:
MJ 5  Kobe 0

Field goal percentage of .45% or more playoffs:
MJ 11 Kobe 5    (better in the playoffs?)

Playoffs with 700 points or more:
MJ 1  Kobe 0

Playoffs with 650 points or more:
MJ 3  kobe 1

Playoffs with 600 points or more:
MJ 3  kobe 2

PLayoffs with 550 points or more:
MJ 8  Kobe 2

Playoffs with 500 points or more:
MJ 8  Kobe 3  (notice a trend?)

Playoff Total Points Lakers Threepeat:
                  Shaq     Kobe
2000          707      471
2001          487      506 (if you saw shaqs complete stats, you'd see mvp #s)
2002          541      385

Playoff total points Bulls Threepeat:
                 MJ      Pippen
1991        529      368
1992        759      428
1993        666      381
1996        552      305
1997        590      365
1998        680      353
Is there any question who carried the larger load for their respective threepeats, or why MJ was the MVP of all six finals?

Now all that said,notice the trend, for every category I have to lower the standards for kobe to come into the conversation. these are season long statistical averages across their careers.  Does kobe have some marks that mj doesn't? yes he does, but they are very few and far between.  The only clear cut category that kobe beats MJ in is 3 pt shooting, and percentage, and even in that, kobe's best year was his rookie year where he shot at .375%... what did MJ shoot that same year from three?.374%.  So again, this conversation of Kobe being in the same stratosphere as MJ really doesn't hold any water.

Those are gr8 stats an i thank u 4 that but lets not 4get, if not 4 Scottie Pippen in game 6 against Utah we would have had a game 7 an quite possibly an end 2da 3peat bid. Jordan got all da credit cuz da shot he made over byron russell but if it wasnt 4 scottie tippin that inbounds pass 2 Paxson(i believe it was)who kicked it 2 Jordan he would not have had da chance 2 take that shot. Same wit Kobe, without Trevor Ariza(scotties a much betr defender an scorer)da lakers dont get past Houston or Denver(hopefully ron artest will fill that void perfectly)I had a friend who compiled a computer program wit all da Bulls stats durin their 2nd 3peat vs LA's 3peat wit Shaq an Kobe an then again wit Kobe an Pau Gasol last yr an i kno its only a simulation but armed wit all that data da Lakers bested da Bulls 3 out of 4 best of 7 series that was simulated. Kobe is in a league where defenders are way betr than Michael Cooper(1 of da best defenders against Jordan)an da Microwave could ever be. Ill even go 1 step further as sayin that Lebron James will be betr than both Kobe an Jordan in a few more yrs. yes ima Kobe fan but King James is as gud as they get as soon as he gets a reliable clutch shootin game(an clutch free throws)he will be 1 of da best if not da best player basketball has seen since Bird an Magic. Sure Jordan had betr numbers over da yrs but Kobe has been on much betr shootin Laker teams an when he finally quit forcin da issue thats when his true dominance stood out. He's so gud teams have 2 force him 2 give up da rock an thats wat makes a individual player gr8! is when he knows how an when 2 take over a game whether its by shootin lights out or makin teams pay 4 their dbl an triple teams. Kobe did that last yr an da yr b4

a few things...... 1. when you start using video game simulations to make your man look better, thats just sad ..... 2. what today is called a flagrant foul 1 or 2, during mj's time was a regular foul, there wasn't three second violations in the paint, so centers could actually stay in there a bit longer to play defense, and hand checking was allowed.  today's game is easier for perimeter players, and it has been documented by the nba that they made the defensive rule changes to make it easier.  so kobe is so good that teams have to force him to give up the rock, hmmm let me see, so mj sucked so bad that teams let him keep the rock, is that it?  wow dude, your really reaching brah.

 See now u got it twisted! like i already said i knew it was a simulation not brought on by 2K sports or EA or ne other vid game giant. Like stats, games dont prove much. Now wat im sayin abt Kobe is yes he is that damn gud that he's forced 2 give up da rock but in doin so that also has made LA a hell of alot betr. In MJ's day they allowed handchecks, now u have 2 use ur forearm an I never said Jordan sucked i said he was a gud player but not gr8! Remember a gr8 player is defined by how well he trusts his team an \ne time u have 2 put up an avg of 30 shots a game 2 score 50 an demandin da ball even when u have 4 ppl draped all over u an da ball handler(paxson 4 example)has a clear path 2da bucket does not make him a gr8 player. that makes him a ball hog(TRANSLATION: HE DIDNT TRUST HIS TEAM) which is somethin Kobe learned 2do an even lebron an wade whose teams @ da time was no where near da caliber of MJ's Bulls or KB's Lakers so u can stop assumin i said MJ sucked cuz if u read frm da start of our debate u would have seen i never used that wrd. If im gona say sum1 sucks u best believe ill say it!

wow, so kobe is a great player, but MJ isn't? wow.  by your logic mj isn't great because kobe knows how to share the rock and still get his points right, but notice how mj has had 2 seasons with 500 or more assists, and 1 season with 600 or more assists, all during seasons he lead the league in scoring.  so even though he has clearly had more assists through out his career than kobe, jordan never trusted his team? lol, wow.  last I checked kobe has never sniffed a 600 assist season, ever,  not even close.  nice logic, but the fact that your saying that jordan isn't an all time great, that he was just good tells me how much you know about bball right there.  Even kobe doesn't agree with you there. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBh3jf4mOOk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awoqiCFWjGI&feature=related

  hmm that vid is old news! Of course kobe doesnt agree. Lebron doesnt agree he's as gud as Kobe or can Pass as gud as Magic but Magic said he sees alot of himself in Lebron even tho lebron disagrees. Jordan himself once said that Kobe reminded him of himself when he was younger oh an lets not 4get on DA NBA'S GREATEST GAMES hosted by MJ even Jordan said he doesnt think he(his airness)could dominate 2days game as easily as he did had da league been as gud TOP 2 BOTTOM back then as it is now. Its called bein humble an all da basketball guds an gr8's have that humbleness. Charles Barkley an da guys on TNT also said da league is no where as gud as it is now. back then it was Lakers celtics in da 80's 90's brought on Pistons an Bulls an now in da 21st century its not just those teams. its @ least 12 maybe 13 true title contenders out West an in da East 5 maybe 6. not 2 or 3 as it was back in da day. an as far as not knowin abt basketball, hmmm lets see, since 6th grade i played ball. im 39 yrs old now. played semi pro ball(blown knee an other ailments kept me frm makin da NBA jump)19yrs after school as a starter avg 25pts 8 boards 11 assist 3steals while playin 4 a team that won da championship 9 times out of da 19yrs i played an i also coached da same team 2da championship 2yrs ago, turned my daughters elementary boys basketball team frm 3 wins out of 15 tries 2 a force 2b reckoned wit da last 3yrs an i dont kno basketball? sounds like u just stuck on MJ like big daddy said. It seems 2me that u havent watched much ball outside of  B-ball an if u have ur already stuck on MJ bein betr than ne1 in da Universe! like i said b4, he's gud but not gr8! Like i said, bein gr8 is da ability 2 make ur team rise above mediocrity without takin away frm da concept of team. In all but maybe 2 or 3 of MJ's interviews it was I,I,I, an last time i chkd, theres no I in team! 

lol, you are too funny.  and your assuming that I'm young or something like that?  to let you know, I saw the big O play with the bucks, so that should tell you how long I've been watching the game, and I've been a local and international coach on the pro and semi pro levels.  I have coached in italy spain, france, puerto rico and venezuela, apart from small semi pro stints in canada and here in the U.S.  I my friend am not stuck on anyone, that would be you.  The fact is that mj is the only player to win mvp, and defensive player of the year in the same season, and you here are saying, yeah, he was good, but not great.  that to me is just laughable.  you want to talk about today's game?  here you go "coach" this is what joe dumars, tex winter and rick barry think of todays defense  and what the nba did in 04-05.


The death of defense?
by Roland Lazenby
October 20, 2006

It remains one of the enduring images of NBA lore – Joe Dumars guarding a determined young Michael Jordan in the 1990 Eastern Conference playoffs.

Dumars of the “Bad Boy” Detroit Pistons, the league’s two-time defending champs, looked like a gaucho corralling the ultimate toro, his feet moving furiously (maybe the best defensive slide in the history of the game), one forearm firmly barred into Jordan to keep contact, the other bent arm thrust into the air, giving Dumars his only hope of keeping his balance while trying to ride the Jordan whirlwind.

Jerry West watched the performance and remarked privately that most people considered Isiah Thomas the Pistons’ superstar, but West pointed out that it was Dumars who was the supreme talent.

Why?

Well, West said, both Thomas and Dumars could push the envelope offensively, “but Joe’s defense sets him apart.”

Just how good was that defense?

It left a supremely disappointed Jordan sobbing at the back of the team bus when the series was over (it’s also probably the only NBA defense ever to spawn a best-selling book: Sam Smith’s ‘The Jordan Rules’).

Indeed, it was a formative moment in pro basketball history because it brought Jordan the ultimate challenge and propelled him toward a greatness that fascinated a global audience. Whether they liked pro basketball or not, people felt compelled to watch “His Airness” grow up against the Pistons’ physical challenge.

“I think that ‘Jordan Rules’ defense, as much as anything else, played a part in the making of Michael Jordan,” said Tex Winter, who was an assistant coach for that Chicago team. The 1990 loss forced Jordan and the Bulls to find an answer to Detroit’s muscle.

“Those Jordan Rules were murder,” Winter explained. “The fact that we could win the next year even though they were playing that defense says everything about Jordan as a competitor. Any lesser player would have folded his tent.”

Jordan had to dig deeper to respond to the Pistons, and his effort pushed his Bulls to six championships over the next eight seasons.

The unfortunate footnote to this legacy is that under an interpretation of the rules adopted by the NBA last season, if Dumars were playing today he would not be allowed to guard Jordan so physically, or perhaps even guard him at all.

Today Dumars is the chief basketball executive of the team he once led as a player. He’s an honest man, which means he chooses his words carefully.

Asked in July if he could defend Jordan under today’s interpretation of the rules, Dumars first laughed, then offered a long pause before replying, “It would have been virtually impossible to defend Michael Jordan based on the way the game’s being called right now.”

THE NEW WAY

Just how is the game being called these days?

New Jersey Nets executive Rod Thorn, a longtime expert on NBA rules, acknowledges that last season the league adopted a dramatic shift in how it interpreted the rules of the game.

No longer would a defensive player on the perimeter be allowed to use his hand, a barred arm or any sort of physical contact to impede or block the movement of either a cutter or a ball handler.

In a recent interview, Thorn said that the NBA had changed the rule to give an advantage to the offensive player.

“It’s more difficult now to guard the quick wing player who can handle the ball,” Thorn said of the change. “I think it helps skilled players over someone who just has strength or toughness. What the NBA is trying to do is promote unimpeded movement for dribblers or cutters.”

Thorn said the change was made because muscular defensive players had gotten the upper hand.

“My opinion is that the game had gone too much toward favoring strong players over skilled players,” Thorn said. “The NBA felt there was too much body, too much hand-checking, being used by defenders to the detriment of the game. There was a feeling that there was too much advantage for a defensive player who could merely use his strength to control the offensive player.”

The new rules interpretations have attempted to address that issue, Thorn said.

“If the refs perceive that a defender is bumping the cutter, or bumping a ball-handler, then they’ll blow their whistles.”

Blow their whistles is exactly what officials began doing in both the NBA and its Development League (where many nights officials were whistling a whopping 60 to 70 fouls a game).

This new way of calling became increasingly apparent with each regular-season game last year, and it really made an impression during the playoffs. Free from the physical challenge of defenders, offensive players found many more opportunities to attack the basket – and draw fouls.

As a result, the new rules interpretation helped promote the emergence last season of a new generation of super stars, from Kobe Bryant scoring his 81 points during a regular season game, to LeBron James, Vince Carter, Gilbert Arenas and Dwyane Wade making big splashes in the playoffs.

“The good wing players – LeBron, Kobe, Arenas, Wade, Carter – shot a lot of free throws with the way the game is now called,” Thorn admitted.

The change became quite apparent during the NBA Finals in June as fans saw time and again Miami’s Wade attacking the basket against seemingly helpless Dallas defenders.

When they did try to stop Wade, those Dallas defenders often drew foul calls, which sent Wade to the line to shoot free throws.

The new approach even played a role in determining the NBA champion, as Wade played majestically in leading Miami from a two-game deficit to a four-games-to-two victory for the title.

NOT EVERYONE’S HAPPY

The results were immediate and pleasing to the league’s front office.

Offensive players were freed as never before and fans were thrilled by high-scoring games. Television ratings jumped with the excitement, and reporters began filing stories signaling an NBA revival not seen since the days when Jordan played for the Bulls.

The league had made an obvious move to try to pick up scoring averages that had been in decline since the late 1980s. And it seems to have worked.

But not everyone is enthused about the changes.

Tex Winter, now 84 and the veteran of more than a half century of coaching, has serious misgivings about what the league has done.

Winter acknowledges the outgrowth of the new rules interpretation is the rise of the super dominant offensive player, led by Wade’s performance in the NBA Finals and Bryant’s string of 40-, 50, even 60-point games during the regular season.

“It’s brought all these 40-point scorers,” Winter said. “They can’t score 40 points unless they get 15-20 free throws.”

And that’s exactly what they were getting on their big nights.

“They should be protected, but not that much,” Winter said of the current generation of talented offensive players. “I don’t think that just touching a player should be a foul.”

Yet there were key foul calls in the playoffs last year that came down to touch calls, which in turn sent the offensive player to the line for bonus points that ultimately decided games.

Ironically, this attempt to pick up scoring also slowed the pace of NBA games last year because numerous foul calls mean a parade of free throws on many game nights, Winter said.

“The fans are not going to like that whistle blowing all the time. It’s slowed down the pace of the game.”

Winter’s other complaint with the new officiating is that the game now allows the same old physical play in the post while turning the perimeter and wing into a no-touch zone.

“That doesn’t make sense to me,” Winter said. “If you can do all that tough stuff inside, why can’t you do it outside?”

“Defense has basically stayed the same in the low post. Out on the court there’s no doubt that the interpretation has changed,” Thorn conceded.

FAVORING ONE STYLE OVER ANOTHER

Dumars put together a Pistons team that won an NBA championship in 2004 and made a return to the Finals in 2005. That team would have a harder time playing its defensive style in today’s game, Dumars said.

“We could still compete, but it would be a lot tougher.”

As one of the top executives in the league, Dumars is hesitant to criticize the changes. He articulates his misgivings cautiously, but he makes it clear that the new rules may not allow for much diversity of play.

“I think the game is best played when everyone is allowed to play to their strengths,” he said. “I don’t think any one style should be elevated over another style.”

He said the league was at its best back in the late 80s and early 90s.

“There were different styles. The Lakers had their Showtime style, getting out and running. We had our physical style as the Pistons. The Celtics had their style, as did the Bulls. There wasn’t anyone pushing for one style of play. That made it entertaining. When we played the Lakers, it was a battle of styles, their running against our physical game.”

Dumars said that clash of styles made for great basketball, great entertainment for the fans.

His comments beg the question: Has the league eliminated a defensive style with its new format?

OVERREACTION

Hall of Famer Rick Barry, a keen observer of the game, said he would love to see players of the past getting to attack the basket under the new officiating.

“They’d score a lot more,” he said.

Barry called the new rules interpretation “on overreaction by the league to the low scoring teams that have arisen over the last 15 years.”

Actually the league was perhaps trying to remedy the wrong problem, Barry said.

The problem of low scoring is that coaches with less talented teams, beginning with Mike Fratello back in the 80s, put “an emphasis on ball control, on keeping down the number of possessions. That was the way Fratello kept his teams in ball games. It was the smart thing to do to win.”

Soon other coaches, who needed to win to avoid getting fired, began copying Fratello’s approach.

With that slower style also came the rise of muscular – some say illegal – defenses, such as Dumars’ “Bad Boy” Pistons and Pat Riley’s New York Knicks.

The combination of a slower tempo and the muscular defense turned the NBA’s running game into a half-court battle.

Rather than calling touch fouls, the NBA really should have considered shortening the shot clock to 20 or even 18 seconds, Barry said. “That would speed the game up.”

Still, Barry, a prodigious scorer, admits to being angered by hand-checking defenses back in the 70s. And the modern game had become dominated by hand-checking and other physical ploys.

“With the way the game was being played, how much skill does it take to hold and push and shove and grab excessively?” Barry asked. “Now, with the new rules, the athletic players are much more exciting for the fans to watch.”

THE ADJUSTMENT?

Rod Thorn concedes that the increased foul calls were a negative last season because a parade of free throws ultimately slows the tempo of a game and subtracts from the quality of basketball.

“Once the players get used to it, they’ll adjust,” he said.

The changes will not bring the end of defense as we know it, Thorn said. “The good defensive teams are still good. It’s just more difficult to cover those wing players, there’s no doubt about it.”

It does, however, raise questions about the style of defense. Teams that like ball pressure are already rethinking their approach.

Both Tex Winter and Joe Dumars agree that there will be adjustments, just as they agree that now that the NBA has found some new offensive life, there will be no turning back to the old ways.

So the upcoming season becomes a matter of how teams, coaches and players adjust to a new game.

Dumars, always a stoic as a player, takes the same approach as an executive.

“Everybody is going to have to adjust to how the game is being called,” he said. “There’s no sense in complaining about it because it’s not going to change. That’s been the history of the league. The game changes and you have to make adjustments.”

Teams will have to adjust their personnel, coaches will have to adjust their strategies and tactics, and players will have to adjust their play, Dumars said.

There will be adjustments before the season, before games, even during games, he added.

Winter, though, thinks adjustments should not be made just by players and coaches.

He thinks officials still need to adjust how they call the game. They can’t make it a sport of touch fouls.

“It’s pretty hard to play defense against these quicker guards without touching them a little bit,” Winter said. “I think the officials are going to have to make an adjustment too. They can’t call all those touch fouls.”

A big issue for Winter’s Lakers is how the guards will play defensively. Traditionally, Phil Jackson’s teams have featured lots of ball pressure. That means the Lakers’ pressure style has to shift.

“I think you have to play more of a containing defense,” explained Winter. “You can still put some pressure on the offense. You can contain them and slow the ball up.”

But the new guidelines “change how you force turnovers,” Winter explained. “You can’t be as aggressive as you’d like to be with your hands. You can’t be ‘into’ the guy as much.”

As a result, defense now becomes a matter of waiting for the offensive player to make a mistake, rather than forcing a turnover, Winter said.

The Lakers would like to exert the kind of ball pressure they used to deploy when Derek Fisher wore the Forum Blue and Gold.

But the new guidelines are still murky, Winter said.

Before games, officials have visited with teams to explain the new approach, Winter said.

“They come in and tell us all this stuff. Then the first four or five plays of the game, you see them doing just the opposite from what they said. You don’t know what they’re going to call. So you have to adjust accordingly, depending what’s going on from game to game, even half to half.”

Barry agreed immediately, citing several incidents in the playoffs where veteran officials made questionable touch calls that had substantial impact on the outcome of a series.

Still, all in all, Barry says he likes the direction the league is taking toward eliminating hooliganism. Hockey finally did that, which now allows fans to see the brilliance of the world’s fastest, most athletic, skaters, Barry said.

As for Dumars, he’s already begun his adjustments. He signed Flip Murray in the offseason, primarily because he’s a young guard who knows how to move his feet and stay in front of an opponent with a killer crossover and lightning moves.

Dumars knows he’s got to find defenders who know that they can move their feet and look the opponent in the eye. They just can’t touch.

Roland Lazenby is the author of The Show: The Inside Story Of The Spectacular Los Angeles Lakers In The Words Of Those Who Lived It, recently released by McGraw-Hill

just think how far he would be if he the caught on earlier about team work

 exactly! he may not have 3peated without shaq but he certainly wouldve had 5 rings an wrkn on 6 this season. maybe 7

hell yes thr rules have change alot. you can look at someone without something being call.

hell yes thr rules have change alot. you can look at someone without something being call.

 Hmmm i remember them tlkn abt this article on TNT an Barkley agreed 2 a pt. So did Smith. While da league made it much tougher 2 play da gud ole defense that was played back in da day, its actually a blessin that da rules was chngd frm da gud ole hand chk 2 forearm chkn(i like da handchk much betr myself). Im not a fan of da zone defense(quotes barkley an smith an neither am i)but it is wat it is now. da defense actually brings out a players true potential(I THINK THIS IS UP 4 GRABS)an now when a player earns da NBA's top defensive player of da yr award it's truly earned(this can be agreed an disagreed on.). So every1 has their own opinions. most makes sense an sum do not. urs makes sense based on stats! Mine also makes sense based on stats an also team strength or weakness. Take T-mac 4 instance. if he can stay healthy 4a whole NBA season i think he could easily dominate da league da way kobe has an da way Wade an King James is learnin 2do. so no im not stuck on Kobe. He's not even my fav Laker. Mine is Fisher an Jordan farmar. It was Ariza until he left. U just cant deny that Kobe has become like Mike but betr

games are just games. it makes for bigger heads. it make kids  that  dont watch the game believe in them

dam your on point

 lol! thats true these ticky tack fouls in 2days league wouldve gotten refs fired in yesterdays league an now i read on here that da NBA is bannin handclaps in favor of fist an chestbumps 2 slow down swine flu! WTF?!?! I still hope its a joke or a rumor cuz thats stupid, like i had commented on that article once b4 if they ban handshakes they might as well ban sweatin 2.

 i was once coached by a guy who couldnt stand MJ cuz of his ball hoggin ways an he had no luv 4 Kobe either 4da same reasons. He demoted our teams best player 2da bench cuz he tried 2b like mike an he was tosiin up close 2 50 damn near every game but our team was losin. when da guy got benched my team ran off 23 str8 wins an turned around an won another 19 str8 en route 2 a championship. Our guy got traded da followin yr 2 our top rivals an every1 thought this would put them over da top against us but his ball hoggin stopped that.  My coach always let us guard 1 on 1 da teams best player an stuff every1 else an that was a strategy that wrkd 98% of da games we won while he was alive

like mike but better? really? wow.  to show you how impressive mj's numbers are, in kobe's 2 scoring title seasons (yes, he's only had 2), kobe racked up35.4 ppg,  147 steals, and 30 blocks, in 06, and 31.6 ppg, 111 steals, and 36 blocks in 07'.  those are his two best scoring seasons back to back.  and the numbers have dropped since.  Jordans back to back 200 steal/100 block seasons look like this, 37.1 ppg, 236 steals, 125 blocks, in '87 and 35 ppg, 259 steals, 131 blocks, in 88'.  those are their two respective best seasons by the numbers, defense and offense.  look at the MAJOR difference on defense.  difference is, MJ did this about 8 more times, and kobe has never worked hard on defense, even in his best seasons, the numbers don't come close to MJ's.  Kobe saves his energy for offense, and still has never posted a higher shooting percentage than mj, or a season with higher scoring output than mj, yet he plays less defense, so it should mean he would have the energy no?  MJ is considered the greatest because he did it on both sides of the floor for a consistent period of about 10 years, and he won when it counted.  you want to talk about kobe being better than mj, when kobe's best seasons haven't even been better than mj's best seasons.  and again, mj did this about 8 more times. Kobe has had 3 mj like seasons, and people like you want to say he is better.  Kobe is not the all around player mj was, period, and the numbers don't lie.

 hmmm well thats not quite true. Now ur it seems like ur reachin. Kobe was a beast on defense since phil jackson began coachin him. again of course MJ had betr numbers. look @ da league of yesterday vs 2day. an of course jordan is gona avg 35pts a game, look @ all da shots he tossed up 2 get that many points. da nxt closest teammate avg 17 shots an that was scottie pippen. Jordan h8d it when ppl other than himself shot da ball. he yelled @ scottie an kerr an paxon an longley an even got in rodmans face 4 takin shots(AN MAKIN THEM NO LESS)1 thing ill give props 2 Jordan over Kobe on is he never quit on his team an Kobe has done that a few times. But all around? Ill take Kobe da ball sharer over Jordan da ball hog ne day an i bet my team would beat Jordans

lol, again, you are just making me laugh dude.
seasons with at least 600 assists:
MJ 1 Kobe 0

seasons with at least 500 assists:
MJ 2 kobe 0

seasons with at least 400 assists:
MJ 7 kobe 4

again, who is the ball hog?  he hated when other people shot the ball? thats why paxson, hodges, armstrong all had playoff game winning shots?  lol, you are too funny.

thank you...exactly how i feel

 i agree 2a point wit u. I always said LA was da leagues 2nd best team behind da Celtics an that last yr really wanst a true measure of da team cuz of injuries 2 Boston an their struggle 2 beat a depleted Houston team. Hopefully when da real season starts(playoffs)we'll see ho da best is if all teams stay healthy an i luv my lakers but my money is on Boston especially cuz they added rasheed wallace. as far as Jordan is concerned 2 say he wasnt a ballhog is crazy an insane. ne time u need 2 take 30 or more shots a game by urself an gettin pissed when a teammate shoots da ball(an its a gr8 look)thats hoggin da ball. Even phil jackson said it himself that he wished Jordan would trust his teammates more an distribute da ball. He also said it abt Kobe an complained @ 1 time that Jordan an Kobe had 1 similarity early in their careers. They tried 2 do 2 much. Jordan was a gr8 shooter, gud defender, gud rebounder an ok teammate. Kobe is also a gr8 shooter especially in da clutch 78% of da time(so was Jordan), a gr8 defender(he may not have had da steals jordan has an u can blame that on da leagues new rules)but he almost always did an excellent job wit da leagues top offensive players.

 ur very welcome!

yes im agree hehehe^^

I didn't say he wasn't a ball Hog I said all great Basketball player including KB LJ even look at wilt you can't get over 100 points without being a ball hog and Jordan's over all numbers are better then KB, and LJ. You can't get 83 points without being a ball hog or 69 points without being a ball hog. Jordan has 6 rings you know what it take to have 6 rings. Kobe also has 6 rings just two are diffrent then Jordans.  Ring just don't come on one player alone its not possible i seen time were Jordan and Pippin got 30 points each Kukoc got like 20. You come up with rule change this era this era that Jordan was just a better all around player then Kobe hands down they both are not the best defenders but Jordan again was better then Kobe not the fact Jordan was a bigger player and to me Jordan has something that both Kobe and LJ don't have they don't have Jordans drive that also were the anger came in he hated to fail he hated to lose he just hated to fail period. I seen LJ just Melt last year he was bad in the Conf Championship Jordan would't melt or give up. Jordan didn't have quit in him above all you can say about him I just think your just a Jordan hater rather then go by the facts.Both KB is an great and LJ is a great and both will be two of the all time best ever but for my money Kobe will  a step below Jordan and LJ played long enough to say that.  I put Jordan in the Ali ,Tiger Woods. Kobe in the next league below that and LJ a league below that he hasn't won anything and when he had a chance to win he failed so until he wins a ring he will be in tier three only tier one and two are for World Championship winners and Kobe has done that much

If Lebron stays healthy throughout his career his numbers could possibly rank him as the greatest of all time (statistically). He and Kobe both got an earlier start than MJ by skipping college so their nba careers might be longer. Lebron unlike Kobe actually played significant minutes right away though and has been racking up the stats ever since. Numbers aren't everything though, ask Karl Malone and Charles Barkley. Gotta win the big ones!

MJ cannot be equaled by anyone, he revolutionized the way basketball could be played

MJ cannot be equaled by anyone, he revolutionized the way basketball could be played

yes he has,and no he cant.the way he played cant be repeated

 First of all Jordan WAS NOT a better shooter than Kobe Phil jackson has already mentioned that you can throw stats around all you want but use the eye test, ive watched Jordans whole Career and Kobes complete career., Kobe has taken tougher shots on a nightly basis compared to Jordan he also shoots more 3's than Michael Jordan does, you have to remember that affects FG percentage, when MJ came in the league he couldnt shoot he was all drives to the basket and dunks thats why his fg percentage was high similar to what Lebron is today, Thats a complete lie about Kobe getting Phil fired and Shaq traded stay off of TMZ and get the facts, Shaq left because of money and Phil left on his own, Kobe didnt run anyone out of town, if thats the case why did Phil come back and Shaq say he would like to retire a laker backing up Andrew Bynum? Also Michael Jordan was a bad teamate he Slapped Steve Kerr and berated his teamates daily, you need to do some research.  Folks really need to let the Jordan thing go its getting to become worship when Kobe was 19 years old he scored 40 points on MJ the truth of the matter is this they played in two different eras with different circumstances if they played against each other in their primes neither one of them would be able to stop the other, Lets stop Riding Mikes sacks so much and recognize that there is NO greatest of all time, You say Shaq didnt win anything until Jordan Retired, I say Jordan didnt win anything until Bird and Magic got old, up until then I watched the bulls come into the Forum in inglewood california and get there tails kicked with Michael Jordan on the team, if the 90's bulls had of played when the Celtics and lakers were in their PRime Michael Jordan wouldnt have any rings period, he didnt win until they 80;s era was done. Look Back at history since your a stats guy, KOBE USE TO GO nUTZ on JORDAN WHEN THEY PLAYED ALL THE WAY BACK TO WHEN HE WAS 19. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju_rG3DtBnM&feature=related      Kobe didnt even Start he came off the bench so dont compare  stats.