Congrats to Jim Rice and Rickey Henderson!

I used to collect Rickey's baseball cards as a kid.  They're in plastic somewhere in my house.  The fact Jim Rice, one of the Nation's own finally gets in on the same day makes this even better. 

Now I have to beg, borrow and steal for tickets to induction weekend. :)

Finally.....Congrats Jim. Rickey, well, you were pretty much a lock, congrats also.

So Rice getting in means I should expect Harold Baines and Andre Dawson to get in in about 15 years, right?

From the BBWAA website, the voting results:

Rickey Henderson 511 (94.8%)
Jim Rice 412 (76.4%)
Andre Dawson 361 (67.0%)
Bert Blyleven 338 (62.7%)
Lee Smith 240 (44.5%)
Jack Morris 237 (44.0%)
Tommy John 171 (31.7%)
Tim Raines 122 (22.6%)
Mark McGwire 118 (21.9%)
Alan Trammell 94 (17.4%)
Dave Parker 81 (15.0%)
Don Mattingly 64 (11.9%)
Dale Murphy 62 (11.5%)
Harold Baines 32 (5.9%)
Mark Grace 22 (4.1%)
David Cone 21 (3.9%)
Matt Williams 7 (1.3%)
Mo Vaughn 6 (1.1%)
Jay Bell 2 (0.4%)
Jesse Orosco 1 (0.2%)
Ron Gant 0
Dan Plesac 0
Greg Vaughn 0

Congrats Jim Rice! You truly deserved it!

Why is this the popular opinion these days?  Perhaps you're just being funny, but if Tommy John ever got into the HOF on that criteria, or for any other reason, than they might as well burn the building down, because it would be worthless.

Bert Blyleven SCREWED AGAIN !!!

I think Rice was pretty deserving and Henderson definitely so, but Blyleven is getting seriously snubbed and should have gone as well. He's running out of time!

While Rickey does indeed deserve to be in the Hall, I think I would still take Cobb over Rickey in that leadoff spot.

Too late....

Yet another case for the writers lowering the standards.  Jim Rice gets in while Mark McGwire does not.  The writers voting is a sham.

Looks like McGwire will have to wait for the veterans committee.  Who would have thought that they would actually right a writers wrong.  So far, all they have done was lower the standards even lower than the writers have.

McGwire is not a HOFer, with or without a steroids controversey.  He was a one-dimensional player.  The only player on the ballot who belongs in the HOF is Henderson.

Wow.  Someone with higher Hall of Fame standards than I do!  I salute you, sir!

I would challenge McGwire being "one dimensional".  He only got that way when he was with the Cards.  He was quite a hitter with the A's.  Very good with the glove.  And of course, the HR total I just can't ignore.

Although this point is sort of moot because obviously had Henderson played back in Cobb's day, he would have hit .600 and stolen 3,000 bases. The game changes over time, so do the players. Rickey's my leadoff guy, no question.

Rice was one of the most feared hitters for about a 10-year stretch.      To me, that qualifies as a HOF'er.

Dawson is close in my mind, very close; maybe not quite as 'feared' as Rice was as a hitter, but Dawson could do so many other things (great defense, ran well).     I suspect Dawson will make it, although off the top of my head I don't know who comes up next year.

Blyleven, though, is close but not there, IMO.     His average career record is 13-11, not exactly HOF numbers.     He never won a Cy Young award (only finished in the Top 3 2 times), won 20 games just 1 time, gave up 430 HR's, and he lost at least 16 games in a season 6 times......six times !!!      In fact, he only had 4 seasons where he won 5 more games than he lost.     Not exactly 'dominant' in my eyes.

Besides......someone has to be the 'best pitcher not in the HOF' !!!

I can finally quit hearing about how Rice is snubbed...good!  Congrats...Like they are watching FANIQ Comments

Only if you think the Hall should change it's name from "Hall of Fame" to "Hall of Good" would any of those names be on a plaque in that building.

Plus, McGwire NEVER lied in that Dog & Pony show you are referencing.  Not once.  Also, his performance in that circus doesn't change his playing career any.  I mean, should some other player not get in because after he retired he cheated on his wife?  A moral crime to be sure, but it has nothing to do with his baseball career.

Oh yeah.......well..................if Cobb played today he'd hit like .900 and steal over 47,000 bases....................and..................my dad can beat up your dad............................and.................I'm gonna get you at recess.................................

OK, I'm done being childish now too.

What you need to do is compare players to their contemporaries, and Cobb had stat's that just blew away the others at the time (and remember, there were less than 1/2 the teams back then......and no DH !)     Not to say that Henderson didn't, but he 'only' had a .279 career average, which is the 2nd lowest for anyone in the '3,000 Hit Club'.      I'm not saying that Rickey doesn't deserve to be in the HOF, all I'm saying is that if you compare his stats to Cobb's, RIckey's gonna come in 2nd.

See you at recess !!              

i think Roberto Alomar is up next year

roberto alomar and barry larkin

Agreed.  McGwire invoked his Fifth Amendment rights, which is afforded to every American.  He had an opportunity to say something, but he chose to say nothing.  There is nothing illegal about that.

Alomar is borderline.  Off the top of my head, I may say "yes" for him.

Larkin...  I want to vote him in.  But he is below Alomar for sure who is borderline.  Larkin has one big thing in his favor that I would value very much if I were a voter...  He spent his entire career with the same team.  That may be enough to get him over the hump in my book.

I'm sorry.  I thought that when you said he..."does not deserve to be in The Hall after lying to Congress." that meant you did not like the idea of someone lying.

No...  No "right minded" person knows any such thing.  Cheating means that you broke the rules directly.  Which McGwire did not do.  One could argue that he violated the spirit of sportsmanship when he took the stuff.  But then, any catcher who has ever tried to frame a pitch to get a favorable umpire call has done that.  Any player who has ever pretended to catch a ball when they knew it was trapped as done it too.  McGwire did not cheat by any definition.  He was looking for an edge.  Something ALL players do.  Plus, why punish him when the pithcers throwing him pitches were doped up, the guys on base for him were doped up, and the outfielders chasing his fly balls were doped up too?  Seems kind of hypocritical to me.

My question is simple.  If you weren't good enough to get in the Hall after the intial 5 years you have to wait to get in, then how did you improve enough to qualify later in life? 

Not at all.  Cheating is cheating.  Gamesmanship is gamesmanship.  Maybe it's a fine line to cross going from gamesmanship to cheating.  But to me, cheating requires two things to be REAL cheating.  First, it needs to violate the rules of the game.  AND it needs to give a player an unfair advantage over the others.  McGwire never violated any rule.  So that condition is gone.  And next, there is no concrete evidence that even taking the stuff makes one hit more homers or become a better player in general.   Gaylord Perry cheated for sure.  But he's in the Hall.  Pretending to not trap a ball you know was trapped does constitute cheating in my book because it gives a player (or team in this case) an unfair advantage AND it violates a rule of the game.  (A ball must be caught on the fly to be considered an out)  McGwire taking andro?  Not cheating.  It was not against the rules at the time he took it.  (Which is enough to disqualify that action from cheating) But the jury is also still out on weather or not it actually gave him some kind of abnormal advantage.

I tell you...  If I took something that ultimately turned into a banned substance AFTER I used it, and was then called into a congressional witch hunt (whose purpose today I still do not know) about its use in my industry...  I don't think I would volunteer anything about my past usage of it.  No matter how innocent I was in using it.  Who could blame him for clamming up in that hearing?  I'd do the same!  So would any person in a similar situation.

Now, if they actually were accusing me directly of breaking some kind of rule or law and I KNEW I never broke that rule or law...  I would protest my innocence.  But that is not what that farce was about.

I have made that point for quite some time.  It points to a major fault of the voting process.  A player is not getting in because they were Hall of Fame caliber themselves.  But they are getting in based on the Hall of Fame caliber of the OTHER players on the ballot.  The weaker the competition, the better chance a player has of getting in.  Which is wrong on so many levels.

I don't know for sure.  In fact, I strongly suspect he did indeed have a steroid or HGH put in his system.  But again, there was no MLB rule forbidding it's use at the time.  Hence, no cheating.  At that point, it was just looking for an edge.  Like when players took uppers to get up for games.  (Which they may even still use to this day for all I know)  While the country is a forgiving lot, even if he did come out and admit it, what would be the advantage?  His reputation already took a hit.  That will be with him forever.  If he officially came out and said he never took it, that won't help him either.  Has it helped Roger Clemens?  Not in any way shape or form.  In fact, it is making things worse for him.  Big Mac's best course of action really (and Clemens' too) is to just shut up and not comment on it.

Footballers flopping?  Good question.  It certainly is gamesmanship.  But out right cheating?  I'm not so sure.  It doesn't violate any rule.  And the only time it gives a team an advantage is when it fools the ref into dishing out a card.  Most of the time, the refs are not fooled.  So while I find the practice distasteful, it does not consitute cheating on the pitch.

I do not think McGwire is a bad guy.  Certainly not on par with Cobb.  The thing is, I think he was a workout freak.  I think he knew about this substance from his teammates and was introduced to it through a trainer or a friend of a teammate or two.  I suspect that he checked to see if it was on the MLB banned substance list.  I think he took anything he felt would help him get stronger that was not on the banned substance list.  But then, well AFTER the fact, people and writers became extreme hypocrites.  He knows he didn't do anything against the rules.  I know he didn't do anything against the rules.  But most fans and writers do not share that assessment.  This puts him in a bind.  I don't think he wants to get up and lie about what he did.  So he won't go out there and claim he never did it.  (unlike Clemens and Palmerio)  But on the other hand, I think that he would not feel comfortable claiming that he did wrong when he may not honestly beleive he did.  I don't think he did as far as the rules of baseball are concerned.  But I am in the minority on that.  So given his situation, he is best served not saying anything.

LOOKING guilty but knowing he isn't in his mind may be preferable to trying to explain himself to the villiagers with torches and pitchforks.

Jack Morris and Allan Trammell, simply the best pitcher and shotstop from 1980-1988.

If we took out every player from the Hall who cheated in one way or another it would be pretty empty I think.  If any of you think McGwire was the only player on the juice, you should be ashamed.  You don't think any of those pitchers he faced were using some sort of enhancers? 

I agree with triple ddd up top, how has Jim Rice's stats improved over the last few years?  They haven't.  Just like Mack Brown does for the Longhorns, people have been begging and pleading about poor Jim Rice, and it worked. 

Of these guys mentioned:

Andre Dawson, Bert Blyleven, Lee Smith, Jack Morris, Alan Trammell, Dave Parker, Dale Murphy, Harold Baines

only Bert Blyleven and Lee Smith should make it IMO.  Blyleven was screwed by his teams lack of offense, killing his won/loss.  Look at every other major statistical category and he belongs.  Smith is the pioneer of closers and also deserves to go in.

Just my $0.02

Jim Rice 412 (76.4%)
Tim Raines 122 (22.6%)

I knew it was coming (see my headline), but I still don't like it. Ugh.

bout damn time!!!!! Congrats to the both of them.

 Thank you for clarifying that #1 That if McGwire used steroids, [remember Androstenidone is a steroid precursor not a steroid]  it was prior to them being banned and #2 Gamesmanship is merely cheating's upscale cousin. The HOF is full of guys who scuffed balls, stole signs, and 'gained a competitive advantage' that may have violated the sprit is not the letter of the law.

Now I am waiting for : Ron Santo. Andre Dawson, Bert Blyleven, Lee Smith  and Jack Morris.  Blyleven spent much of career on bad teams which is much of what explains his "average career record is 13-11" and  "lost at least 16 games in a season 6 times" if you will look those were nearly all teams that were well  below .500.

All elected players are rightfully due BUT Jim Rice was wrongfully over due. This guy was a monster in The Redsox lineup. Even the Yankees feared him when he came to bat and I'm a Yankee fan.
As for Ricky, He was a hands down favorite. It was just a matter of time when he decided to stop playing. At almost 50 years old THAT is true love of the game.

Rickey Henderson belongs in the baseball Hall of Fame.

Jim Rice belongs in the Hall of Pretty Good--along with Tinker, Evers, Chance, Rizzuto, and others of that ilk. , Feared hitter???  Okay , put him the Hall of Feared. But please, give me a break on the Hall of Fame.

Sadly the whole concept of the Hall of Fame has become so degraded over the years that it has truly become a joke. Sort of like the baseball equivalent of grade inflation where you have to be failing to get a B.

Maybe MLB needs to cull the HOF for a new pantheon called the Hall of the Immortals.

There would only be one person in the Hall of Immortals.  Bob Feller.  He's 432 years old.

Don't bother patting Rickey on the back, he's been patting himself on the back for quite some time now.

They're both definitely deserving, though.

Pat, you are more of a baseball guy than me, but are you suprised (not that he didn't get in) but that Jack Morris received such a low vote %? Again, I'm no baseball expert, but 254 wins, 175 CG, 28 Shutouts, one No-hitter, and a TEN INNING WORLD SERIES SEVENTH GAME SHUTOUT (WS MVP) gets you 44.0 % of the vote? Where am I wrong here?

Robby Alomar and Fred MCgriff come up next year, along with Barry Larkin and Andres Galarraga.  None of those guys is a lock though I suspect Alomar will probaly make it. I loved Dawson and personally think he belongs. Its about time they recognized Rice. He shouldve been in there 10 years ago. Of course, I think Blyleven deserves to get in. Though I can understand why you dont think he belongs. Unless a pitcher wins 300 games, its always been hard to say who should be in and who shouldnt.  Unless you are a Dizzy Dean or a Sandy Koufax and so dominant you have to put them in.

I think Bill James came up with the idea of pantheons and I wonder if it wouldnt be a bad idea.

Congrats to both, and especially for Rice......for him, this was long overdue.

Morris is at least as deserving as Rice. I will say that.

I'm ecstatic that another Red Sox player is in the Hall of Fame, but at the same time, I feel a little dirty. I would rather see guys like Jim Rice (and many others) held out, than the flood of guys that will get in after this.

i'm just wondering where the 5.2% that didn't vote for Ricky are hiding? witness protection possibly?

Whoever voted for Matt Williams and Mo Vaughn to make the HOF need to have thier voting rights permanently revoked!!!

It's this jackass right here.

Nobody can have a beef about Rice after Kirby Puckett got in, sympathy vote or not.

Sometimes I wonder if the writers actually watched the games.  I was only in elementary school during his heyday, but Jim Rice was clearly one of the five guys people wouldn't pitch to in the American League.  The "stats games" are silly because you just know when someone was a Hall-of-Famer.

So then what's the hold-up on Andre Dawson?  He was the leader of an amazing early 80's Montreal Expos franchise, and was a five-tool player before their Wal-Mart brand artificial turf ruined his knees by age 30.  He also won an MVP for a last-place (I know that's not shocking) Cubs team. 

How are stats silly? How else does one determine who the best players were, which is of course the main criteria for enrishment?

As for that claim on Rice, not exactly: http://www.faniq.com/blog/Jim-Rice-In-Tim-Raines-Out-I-Dont-Get-It-Blog-17707

I didn't explain myself well at all, but I don't think stats are silly.  I'm just not sure it's fair to compare statistics across eras.  Rice and Dawson's numbers looks ridiculous because of the steroid era.

Who says I was? My problem with Rice is his overall numbers are inflated by his home park, the nonsense about him being "feared" which is based on nothing but hearsay, plus the lack of defensive value and all those GIDPs (forgot to mention that in my article today).

With Dawson, his big problem is that career .323 OBP. I hear that "no one cared about OBP back then," but that's crap. It may not been explicitly stated, but it's common sense that making outs is bad, and OBP is the percentage of the time the player doesn't make an out. Dawson's career is below average in the time he played. To me, that's enough to keep him (slightly) on the "out" line.

wow that is just retarded...that guy is natural born hater.  I can't believe 23 people didn't vote for Willie Mays to make the HOF

I think Rice definitely was helped out by playing in Boston.  The Red Sox climb toward and success in claiming the elusive World Series championship has added even more romance to their franchise. 

To say that "Dawson's career is below average in the time he played" is crazy.  In addition, to take a stat like On Base Percentage, and use it as a broad brush to make a final determination seems a bit misguided.  If Dawson was a lead-off hitter I could see it, but his job was never to draw 100 walks in a season. 

I didn't say Dawson was a below average player. I'm saying his OBP was below average, which is true. Considering that OBP is the most important offensive stat of all, that's a big minus.

That's fair.