Skip to Next Poll »
10
Do you think it's ok to build a Mosque next to Ground Zero? (Edited 10/14/10 01:47AM by Jess)
Just looking for opinions.
| Closed on 10/14/10 at 05:00PM
FanIQ Pts? No | Locker Room | Multiple Choice Opinion Poll
35 Fans 
43%a. yes
57%b. no

 &nbp;
TOP COMMENT * * * * * * * * * * * *
#2 | 1529 days ago

It's legal, but it's an a$$h0le thing to do.
  
97 Comments | Sorted by Most Recent First | Red = You Disagreed
Vote for your favorite comments. Fans decide the Top Comment (3+ votes) and also hide poor quality comments (4+ votes).
#1 | 1529 days ago

Yes it is a little thing called religious freedom, and it is protected by the U.S. Constitution!
yes  
#2 | 1529 days ago

It's legal, but it's an a$$h0le thing to do.
#3 | 1529 days ago
ssusiej46 (+)

NO and that is all i have to say

no  
#4 | 1529 days ago

Actually it's several blocks away from GZ that they're looking to build it. I think that the problem is, so many people don't understand exactly what a mosque is, or what it is that they want to build. People who are really fired up about this mostly don't take into account that the people who destroyed the towers that tragic day were extremists - terrorists; regardless of religion. Christian terrorists have killed more people in this country than Muslim terrorists, and nobody would be upset if someone wanted to build a church next to any of those sites where terrorists who were Christian, etc. have annihilated. I think this kind of evil has less to do with religion and everything to do with the individual who commits it. I don't think it's fair to treat anyone in this country differently based on religion, regardless of what that religion is.

They're not looking for a place to build bombs or preach terrorism. They're looking for a place to pray in their own way, and have a community center much like a YMCA type deal.

In fairness, I don't know how difficult it is to find real estate in NYC, but I can't imagine it's that easy. Who knows, maybe they could find a different place - but maybe they can't.
yes  
#5 | 1529 days ago
ssusiej46 (+)

Need to look in the back ground where the money is coming from serious
no  
#6 | 1529 days ago

I believe in freedom of religion -- it's one of the staples that this country was founded on.  I hear about this pretty much every day -- I can't make up my mind if it's a "victory building" for the terrorists or not, but I know that they will use propaganda to make it that way.  I also don't know if the religion that is going to be preached there includes beheading people or attempts of extermination.  I do know this -- it's a poor choice of real estate, given the circumstances and, until I find out more information - I sure as hell don't want to help pay for it's construction.  I don't feel that I have enough information -- but my gut tells me it's wrong
no  
#7 | 1529 days ago
Diablorain (+)

HELL NO! we shouldnt reward them for killing people... not only  that but  the money they are getting to fund it is coming from a terrorist group to begin with...sad indeed....
no  
#8 | 1529 days ago
18packabs (+)

They can do what they want, it is their right.  Do I like it, F&%K NO  But I don't like alot of other sh*t either.
yes  
#9 | 1529 days ago

NO !!!  I almost lost my son that day he worked at the W.T.C. but he took the day off I think someone was looking out for him that day
no  
#10 | 1529 days ago
cubsgirl2 (+)

(Edited by cubsgirl2)
 Of course they should be allowed to. I'm sorry but Jess is very right. You know the Muslims the true Muslims were also hurt that day.  I cannot imagine how hard the lives of Muslim Americans have changed since 9/11.  How does a church a true church a holy place of worship bring out anger in anyone? I have churches down here that preach hate and intolerance those are the churches that should inspire anger.  And until this Mosque is proven to be doing that then yes it has a right to be built. 
yes  
#11 | 1529 days ago
cubsgirl2 (+)

Diablorain wrote:
HELL NO! we shouldnt reward them for killing people... not only  that but  the money they are getting to fund it is coming from a terrorist group to begin with...sad indeed....
 Them? Them who?  The people who go to that Mosque? They weren't the ones flying those planes. These are Americans wanting to build a place of worship. 
yes  
#12 | 1529 days ago

why wouldnt it be? Is it okay to build a Catholic church next to ground zero?

#13 | 1529 days ago

(Edited by Cali_Kat)
 Here is the way I see it. The people that hijacked those planes called themselves Muslims....but they were extremists. Every religion has extremists. Timothy McVeigh was supposedly a Christian yet he blew up the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. So is any one gonna try to stop Christians from building a Christian Church nearby? Catholics Extremists blow up Planned Parenthood Clinics but I am sure that no one would stop them from building a Church nearby a bombing site. 
It all comes down to religious freedom. The people that are building that Mosque were not the ones flying those planes on 9/11. If you do any kind of research on the Muslim religion you will see that they are against the kind of violence that took place.  I am not trying to be disrespectful of anyone who lost a loved one that day but they have a right to build a Mosque there. 
yes  
#14 | 1529 days ago

 Freedom of Religion in this Country. You should not judge a group of people for the actions done by a few. Those men who attacked us on 9-11 were terrorists who hated every thing. A mosque is a religious sanction and I am all for peace and praise. Timothy Mcviegh was a religious extremist.  What he did was just as horrid as what those men did on  9-11. We all seem to forget that. If  there was talk about building a  church near the  Murrah buildingn in Oklahoma City  would the same questioned be asked .I don't think so
#15 | 1529 days ago

NO

no  
#16 | 1528 days ago
NorseHeathen (+)

I've already addressed this in another site, so I figured in order not to repeat myself:

"...this situation is a test of our convictions to adhere to a Constitutional principle--or succumb to the fears and prejudices that have plagued human existence since nationalism and wars of religions became a part our history.

Do we ignore the stance of the Imam that that speaks out against terrorism and extremism solely because of his faith? Or do we instead look at the opportunity for him to take a plot of land--once desecrated by those of extremism and allow him and those of his philosophical perspective to make something positive from the tragedies of the past. What would be more powerful than for a leader of this proposed institution than to take a misguided adherent of the Muslim faith, step outside of the front door to the Mosque, point in the direction of where the towers once stood, an proclaimed that what occurred did not honour the Muhammad, but instead desecrated him with shame for a despicable act carried out in his name? What better way to enforce the reality of the hardship and distrust Muslims experience is attributed to that act of misguided extremism from those who do not know Muslims or the Muslim faith other than what happened on 9/11?

In short, do we ignore the principles of the first amendment of our Constitution out of fear or prejudice? In so many ways, this country is so far away from the philosophies of our founders that I question whether we can work our way back. This issue is a test of our commitment to freedom over fear."
#17 | 1528 days ago
cubsgirl2 (+)

NorseHeathen wrote:
I've already addressed this in another site, so I figured in order not to repeat myself:

"...this situation is a test of our convictions to adhere to a Constitutional principle--or succumb to the fears and prejudices that have plagued human existence since nationalism and wars of religions became a part our history.

Do we ignore the stance of the Imam that that speaks out against terrorism and extremism solely because of his faith? Or do we instead look at the opportunity for him to take a plot of land--once desecrated by those of extremism and allow him and those of his philosophical perspective to make something positive from the tragedies of the past. What would be more powerful than for a leader of this proposed institution than to take a misguided adherent of the Muslim faith, step outside of the front door to the Mosque, point in the direction of where the towers once stood, an proclaimed that what occurred did not honour the Muhammad, but instead desecrated him with shame for a despicable act carried out in his name? What better way to enforce the reality of the hardship and distrust Muslims experience is attributed to that act of misguided extremism from those who do not know Muslims or the Muslim faith other than what happened on 9/11?

In short, do we ignore the principles of the first amendment of our Constitution out of fear or prejudice? In so many ways, this country is so far away from the philosophies of our founders that I question whether we can work our way back. This issue is a test of our commitment to freedom over fear."
 I believe you to be the reincarnated soul of Thoth. 
yes  
#18 | 1528 days ago

Not only no, but HELL NO. Go build it somewhere else.
no  
#19 | 1528 days ago

Um, there are already several other mosques in the same area.  Why is this one such a big deal to people?

They have every right to build it there, and preventing it would not only be intolerant, but also discriminatory and illegal.
yes  
#20 | 1528 days ago

I have to ask, why did they pick that area? these are Muslims not Hermits. They knew where the Twin Towers were destroyed. Out of ALL the places they could pick, they pick that area? They really thought this would not cause an uproar? They had to know this would get the loved ones of 9-11 upset.
#21 | 1528 days ago

NorseHeathen wrote:
I've already addressed this in another site, so I figured in order not to repeat myself:

"...this situation is a test of our convictions to adhere to a Constitutional principle--or succumb to the fears and prejudices that have plagued human existence since nationalism and wars of religions became a part our history.

Do we ignore the stance of the Imam that that speaks out against terrorism and extremism solely because of his faith? Or do we instead look at the opportunity for him to take a plot of land--once desecrated by those of extremism and allow him and those of his philosophical perspective to make something positive from the tragedies of the past. What would be more powerful than for a leader of this proposed institution than to take a misguided adherent of the Muslim faith, step outside of the front door to the Mosque, point in the direction of where the towers once stood, an proclaimed that what occurred did not honour the Muhammad, but instead desecrated him with shame for a despicable act carried out in his name? What better way to enforce the reality of the hardship and distrust Muslims experience is attributed to that act of misguided extremism from those who do not know Muslims or the Muslim faith other than what happened on 9/11?

In short, do we ignore the principles of the first amendment of our Constitution out of fear or prejudice? In so many ways, this country is so far away from the philosophies of our founders that I question whether we can work our way back. This issue is a test of our commitment to freedom over fear."
If I may expand on your eloquently spoken post, with my own feeble point.

Reading this made me realize that, if through ignorance and hatred this group of Muslim Americans, were to chose a different location for their Mosque. This would just give Bin Laden more fuel for his spewing of hate for Americans. See he can simply use this to prey on more misguided and weak minded Muslim youth. All he would have to say is. "Look they say America is about Religious freedom, but when a group of Muslims wanted to open a Mosque, they chased them off. Why did they do this because America hates Muslims and is afraid of Muslims." Now, do I know for a fact that he would do it? No, but I would hate for us to give him more power to grow his extremist sect. Unfortunately, it is already probably too late for this, since this has been all over the news and certain talking heads are already spewing this kind of ignorance and hatred on 24 hour news networks. We have already given him enough fuel, let's not give him more.
yes  
#22 | 1528 days ago
NorseHeathen (+)

Drummer99 wrote:
I have to ask, why did they pick that area? these are Muslims not Hermits. They knew where the Twin Towers were destroyed. Out of ALL the places they could pick, they pick that area? They really thought this would not cause an uproar? They had to know this would get the loved ones of 9-11 upset.
One thing is for sure--it isn't an easy question, and aside from the mundane question as to the right too, or not to build, this is a question I wish was focused upon more.  Considering all of the discussion, I still have not seen an interview with the Imam, or any other individuals that will be involved after such is opened.  9/11 was the first attack on American soil since Pearl Harbor, but as demonstrated from Tim McVey's actions we have threats from within our own borders as well. 

If this site is to be utilized for turning those prone to an extremist mindset away from such ideologies, it will be a good thing.  Even so, until such a facility becomes a reality there will be no way to know.  Regardless, I still remember and honour the memory of those who died on that day of tragedy, as do I those who's heroic actions of self-sacrifice from Flight 93--and will do so for the rest of my life.
#23 | 1528 days ago

I don't know what happened to my answer but i posted it 5 hrs ago and now it's not here.  What the heck is going on?

Is it right?  No
Is it legal?  Yes
no  
#24 | 1528 days ago

The problem is not that they are building a mosque; it is WHERE they are building a mosque. There is no religious significance of building it there, and if they know it will cause issues with people and they choose to build it, then it seems like they are doing it out of spite.

And telling them not to build where it will cause an issue is not going against the right of freedom of religion. No one said they couldn’t worship Allah, they are saying not to build a temple where people who claimed their faith murdered innocent people. If we have to respect their beliefs, they in turn have to respect others beliefs. This isn’t about tolerance of others, this is about learning that everyone has to learn to respect others.

I do not think it is a wise decision.
no  
#25 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

What amazes me is many of the people who spew venom and hate at the Christian church because if it's minority of idiots are the ones supporting this muslim church.

Personally, I feel that they have the right to build this church, and I wouldn't stop them.  But it seems to me to be a pretty classless thing to do.  It saddens me that some people don't understand this.
no  
#26 | 1528 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
What amazes me is many of the people who spew venom and hate at the Christian church because if it's minority of idiots are the ones supporting this muslim church.

Personally, I feel that they have the right to build this church, and I wouldn't stop them.  But it seems to me to be a pretty classless thing to do.  It saddens me that some people don't understand this.
I don't understand your first sentence, but why is it classless? Would it be classless for any religion to build a religious institution there, or just Muslims? Why should the American Muslims here be held accountable and punished for something they had nothing to do with nor supported or condoned? I dont understand.
#27 | 1528 days ago



I can understand why some people would see this as a bad move and be against it for what ever reasons, it is a very touchy subject and rightfully so. But i also think you should not judge a people/religion/culture on the actions of a few idiots or extremist and all Muslims should not be held accountable for the actions of so few. Those extremist gave Muslims a bad name like drunks give drinking or degenerates give gambling and it's not right to blame them all. If that mosque will be used as a place for people to gather and practice their religion and try and show that there are many more positive Muslims then there are extreme one's then i really don't see a problem and it is by American law their right.
yes  
#28 | 1528 days ago

Sharp Square wrote:


I can understand why some people would see this as a bad move and be against it for what ever reasons, it is a very touchy subject and rightfully so. But i also think you should not judge a people/religion/culture on the actions of a few idiots or extremist and all Muslims should not be held accountable for the actions of so few. Those extremist gave Muslims a bad name like drunks give drinking or degenerates give gambling and it's not right to blame them all. If that mosque will be used as a place for people to gather and practice their religion and try and show that there are many more positive Muslims then there are extreme one's then i really don't see a problem and it is by American law their right.
If that mosque will be used as a place for people to gather and practice their religion and try and show that there are many more positive Muslims then there are extreme one's...

And for this reason alone, I would think that we would encourage this.

And I can't stress this enough...again...it's not actually AT Ground Zero. They want to build it several blocks away.
yes  
#29 | 1528 days ago

I thank everyone for their responses.
#30 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

kobe_lova wrote:
I don't understand your first sentence, but why is it classless? Would it be classless for any religion to build a religious institution there, or just Muslims? Why should the American Muslims here be held accountable and punished for something they had nothing to do with nor supported or condoned? I dont understand.
Regarding the first sentence; there is an anti-Christian movement in this country, and most in that movement will use a minority of idiots in the Christian church to legitimize their opinions and persecution.  Let's face it, there are a lot of creeps in the Christian church.  Also, the terrorists of 9/11 are Muslims, and it's said that a minority of muslims are making the rest of them look bad.  So there is hypocrisy on both sides.  You see hate and venom directed at the Christian church in much the same way it is directed at the Muslim faith. 

Regarding the 'classless' comment; it's classless because of what it represents.  And yes, it would be a slap in the face regardless of the faith represented.  Those two towers fell in the name of Allah.  I think we can all agree that was wrong.  It's classless to then build what most people would view as a middle finger to the victims of that tragedy. 

Thirdly I'm not saying Muslims should be universally punished, in fact I said just the opposite.
no  
#31 | 1528 days ago

 A ways back got in trouble on here not suspended but yelled out by the bosses for telling someone to blow themselves up, therefore I have no comment...  
#32 | 1528 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
Regarding the first sentence; there is an anti-Christian movement in this country, and most in that movement will use a minority of idiots in the Christian church to legitimize their opinions and persecution.  Let's face it, there are a lot of creeps in the Christian church.  Also, the terrorists of 9/11 are Muslims, and it's said that a minority of muslims are making the rest of them look bad.  So there is hypocrisy on both sides.  You see hate and venom directed at the Christian church in much the same way it is directed at the Muslim faith. 

Regarding the 'classless' comment; it's classless because of what it represents.  And yes, it would be a slap in the face regardless of the faith represented.  Those two towers fell in the name of Allah.  I think we can all agree that was wrong.  It's classless to then build what most people would view as a middle finger to the victims of that tragedy. 

Thirdly I'm not saying Muslims should be universally punished, in fact I said just the opposite.
Organized religion...

And yes, it would be a slap in the face regardless of the faith represented.... okay, though I disagree unless they decide to memoralize an entire GZ perimeter making it off limits to everyone...which may actually be a good idea, and for some reason i still believe that most wouldnt have a problem at all if it was a "regular" church.

it's classless because of what it represents.... I guess I just won't understand this. It's crazy to me that people would believe that they were doing this with some sort of malice or disrespectful intent. Of course, I would also find it crazy if some group of idiot women I didnt know in Texas killed a group of people in the name of women, and then I wasn't allowed to move to Texas, so there's that.

And the towers fell in the name of Allah...

(sigh)
#33 | 1528 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
Regarding the first sentence; there is an anti-Christian movement in this country, and most in that movement will use a minority of idiots in the Christian church to legitimize their opinions and persecution.  Let's face it, there are a lot of creeps in the Christian church.  Also, the terrorists of 9/11 are Muslims, and it's said that a minority of muslims are making the rest of them look bad.  So there is hypocrisy on both sides.  You see hate and venom directed at the Christian church in much the same way it is directed at the Muslim faith. 

Regarding the 'classless' comment; it's classless because of what it represents.  And yes, it would be a slap in the face regardless of the faith represented.  Those two towers fell in the name of Allah.  I think we can all agree that was wrong.  It's classless to then build what most people would view as a middle finger to the victims of that tragedy. 

Thirdly I'm not saying Muslims should be universally punished, in fact I said just the opposite.
You're not saying they should be universally punished ... but you are, in a way.  You're saying that this group of Muslims (with no known affiliation with the radical terrorists - who happened to be of the same religion - who attacked the WTC) should not be utilizing one of their American rights because ignorant, prejudiced people in this country who like to stereotype will get huffy.

And if you're experiencing this anti-Christian movement, I would think that you of all people would be able to understand why the backlash against the building of a Muslim mosque near the WTC site is preposterous and discriminatory.  
Christianity, and it's poor practice over the years (yes, I think we agree here that Christianity is NOT, in and of itself "bad" ... it's how many have put it into practice over the centuries that has given it a bad name), has been responsible for millions of deaths.  The Crusades, The Inquisitions, the Salem witch trials ... up to today where it seems every other insane murderer/bomber/stalker/etc. says that they are performing these unspeakable acts in the name of Christ.  

And I think that saying the mosque is classless because of what it represents is a slap in the face to those trying to build it and the Muslim religion as a whole.  It represents peoples' faith in their God and religion.  It also represents, according to those who want to establish the mosque/community center, a way of trying to build bridges within the community.  To show that this can be a positive thing in the area where non-radical Muslims can gather to pray and socialize.  
yes  
#34 | 1528 days ago

janet011685 wrote:
You're not saying they should be universally punished ... but you are, in a way.  You're saying that this group of Muslims (with no known affiliation with the radical terrorists - who happened to be of the same religion - who attacked the WTC) should not be utilizing one of their American rights because ignorant, prejudiced people in this country who like to stereotype will get huffy.

And if you're experiencing this anti-Christian movement, I would think that you of all people would be able to understand why the backlash against the building of a Muslim mosque near the WTC site is preposterous and discriminatory.  
Christianity, and it's poor practice over the years (yes, I think we agree here that Christianity is NOT, in and of itself "bad" ... it's how many have put it into practice over the centuries that has given it a bad name), has been responsible for millions of deaths.  The Crusades, The Inquisitions, the Salem witch trials ... up to today where it seems every other insane murderer/bomber/stalker/etc. says that they are performing these unspeakable acts in the name of Christ.  

And I think that saying the mosque is classless because of what it represents is a slap in the face to those trying to build it and the Muslim religion as a whole.  It represents peoples' faith in their God and religion.  It also represents, according to those who want to establish the mosque/community center, a way of trying to build bridges within the community.  To show that this can be a positive thing in the area where non-radical Muslims can gather to pray and socialize.  
I deleted most of what i typed because it would have been super long...especially about the "because of what it represents" and the "in the name of allah" part (you see that I deleted that response entirely) and I said janet will explain it for me. See... I knew you before you logged in.
#35 | 1528 days ago

kobe_lova wrote:
I deleted most of what i typed because it would have been super long...especially about the "because of what it represents" and the "in the name of allah" part (you see that I deleted that response entirely) and I said janet will explain it for me. See... I knew you before you logged in.
  
yes  
#36 | 1528 days ago
Diablorain (+)

its just a big slap in the face to me...
no  
#37 | 1528 days ago

(Edited by Oddfool)
janet011685 wrote:
You're not saying they should be universally punished ... but you are, in a way.  You're saying that this group of Muslims (with no known affiliation with the radical terrorists - who happened to be of the same religion - who attacked the WTC) should not be utilizing one of their American rights because ignorant, prejudiced people in this country who like to stereotype will get huffy.

And if you're experiencing this anti-Christian movement, I would think that you of all people would be able to understand why the backlash against the building of a Muslim mosque near the WTC site is preposterous and discriminatory.  
Christianity, and it's poor practice over the years (yes, I think we agree here that Christianity is NOT, in and of itself "bad" ... it's how many have put it into practice over the centuries that has given it a bad name), has been responsible for millions of deaths.  The Crusades, The Inquisitions, the Salem witch trials ... up to today where it seems every other insane murderer/bomber/stalker/etc. says that they are performing these unspeakable acts in the name of Christ.  

And I think that saying the mosque is classless because of what it represents is a slap in the face to those trying to build it and the Muslim religion as a whole.  It represents peoples' faith in their God and religion.  It also represents, according to those who want to establish the mosque/community center, a way of trying to build bridges within the community.  To show that this can be a positive thing in the area where non-radical Muslims can gather to pray and socialize.  
"It represents peoples' faith in their God and religion."

All the different talks with people exalting their god and dis-regarding other faiths and religions has often irritated me.  Many religions are about a faith in a higher power, and generally promoting a good will and tolerance towards others.    Oh, there are differences, here and there, but overall the main themes are there.

But for any one particular religion being the "Right One"?   (Reminds me of a SouthPark episode, when everyone of differing faiths were told that they had chosen incorrectly,  apparently the Mormons were the correct ones.)

I like the ideas of the Celtic peoples.   While they had worshiped many different 'Gods' (the sun god, the moon god, the forest god, etc.),  they believed that all their different gods were different faces of the same god.

So, whether you believe in God, or Allah,  or, you Star Wars fanatics out there, believe in the all-encompassing Force, I believe these are all the same, just seen from different points of view.

By bad mouthing or disregarding other's faiths, aren't you disregarding your own?  Kinda like smiling to someone's face while stabbing them in the back.
yes  
#38 | 1528 days ago

Oddfool wrote:
"It represents peoples' faith in their God and religion."

All the different talks with people exalting their god and dis-regarding other faiths and religions has often irritated me.  Many religions are about a faith in a higher power, and generally promoting a good will and tolerance towards others.    Oh, there are differences, here and there, but overall the main themes are there.

But for any one particular religion being the "Right One"?   (Reminds me of a SouthPark episode, when everyone of differing faiths were told that they had chosen incorrectly,  apparently the Mormons were the correct ones.)

I like the ideas of the Celtic peoples.   While they had worshiped many different 'Gods' (the sun god, the moon god, the forest god, etc.),  they believed that all their different gods were different faces of the same god.

So, whether you believe in God, or Allah,  or, you Star Wars fanatics out there, believe in the all-encompassing Force, I believe these are all the same, just seen from different points of view.

By bad mouthing or disregarding other's faiths, aren't you disregarding your own?  Kinda like smiling to someone's face while stabbing them in the back.
Exactly.  Especially since Islam and Christianity, in their basic principles, are almost identical.
It's the practice of such religions (and the wording/language barrier) that has muddled things up, whether it be Christian fanatics or radical Muslims.

Potato/Potahto.
yes  
#39 | 1528 days ago
NorseHeathen (+)

huskerfan_ia wrote:
What amazes me is many of the people who spew venom and hate at the Christian church because if it's minority of idiots are the ones supporting this muslim church.

Personally, I feel that they have the right to build this church, and I wouldn't stop them.  But it seems to me to be a pretty classless thing to do.  It saddens me that some people don't understand this.
Personally, I think this is better served as it's own thread.  Even so, it is an extremely ligitimate and necessary question to pose as I see an unfortunate trend of people who are doing right by their Christian faith being "persecuted", so to speak, attributed to the ill-actions of others that define themselves as Christians by their words--but conduct themselves to the contrary in their actions.  As for you Scott, you're an individual that gained my respect very fast during our early discussions.  Heathen, though I may be, I'd stand beside you if needed.  Based upon what I have deduced, you are one that honours your faith through personal example.

That is one thing we do need to remember.  That whilst we defend the "smaller" or "newer" elements of society from being trounced upon by those who would judge them based upon nature of appearances, that we must also recognize that such organizations do not speak for others within the same socio-religious groups.  Prejudice can be turned against those by association whom are undeserving of such a designation.
#40 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

NorseHeathen wrote:
Personally, I think this is better served as it's own thread.  Even so, it is an extremely ligitimate and necessary question to pose as I see an unfortunate trend of people who are doing right by their Christian faith being "persecuted", so to speak, attributed to the ill-actions of others that define themselves as Christians by their words--but conduct themselves to the contrary in their actions.  As for you Scott, you're an individual that gained my respect very fast during our early discussions.  Heathen, though I may be, I'd stand beside you if needed.  Based upon what I have deduced, you are one that honours your faith through personal example.

That is one thing we do need to remember.  That whilst we defend the "smaller" or "newer" elements of society from being trounced upon by those who would judge them based upon nature of appearances, that we must also recognize that such organizations do not speak for others within the same socio-religious groups.  Prejudice can be turned against those by association whom are undeserving of such a designation.
Thanks Kjarten.  It's not many people that can read, comprehend, and respect another persons opinion and still have disagreement.  You my friend have shown the ability to do that. 

We've been too conditioned to apply a 'belief template' to people on the other side, that we tend to put blinders on when it comes to hearing another point of view filtered through this template.
no  
#41 | 1528 days ago

I believe they have a right to build it. I just think this close to the Twin Towers is bad judgment on the Muslims part. They had many choices. Of ALL places they pick here. I don't buy their ignorance. And yes, if its built it will show how tolerant Americans can be. But, tell that to the ppl that had family members killed there. Some of them didn't even find their bodies. Some ppl had only body parts to bury for their graves. THEY will NOT be very understanding about this, whether its nice Muslims or not. They're blinded by rage and I'm not sure I would think any different than they are. I see this situation as a double edged sword. Either way, it hurts someone.




#42 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

kobe_lova wrote:
Organized religion...

And yes, it would be a slap in the face regardless of the faith represented.... okay, though I disagree unless they decide to memoralize an entire GZ perimeter making it off limits to everyone...which may actually be a good idea, and for some reason i still believe that most wouldnt have a problem at all if it was a "regular" church.

it's classless because of what it represents.... I guess I just won't understand this. It's crazy to me that people would believe that they were doing this with some sort of malice or disrespectful intent. Of course, I would also find it crazy if some group of idiot women I didnt know in Texas killed a group of people in the name of women, and then I wasn't allowed to move to Texas, so there's that.

And the towers fell in the name of Allah...

(sigh)
Yes, in the name of Allah, not my words, that's the words of the terrorist.

Regardless of your personal belief, you were attacked on 9/11 just like the rest of us.  We're the infidels, and they want us wiped off the face of the earth, in the name of Allah.  You can scoff that if you wish, but one only has to listen to the words of Bin Laden to understand that this is reality.

This is my point.  Just because this slime ball scum bag uses Allah, doesn't mean the rest of the religion believes the same. 

Again, I'm not saying they shouldn't put it up.  It's their right to do so.  My hope is they build it and use it as a place to honor and grow closer to God.  That is the intended purpose of a mosque.  If the intended purpose and the result differ, then it's called a failure.  What is happening now is making the Muslims appear insensitive and hateful.  Not my opinion, but the opinion of those directly affected by 9/11.

My point is that the people who are attacking those who feel offended aren't using the same sensitivities they'd use if the situation were reversed.  If we were all indeed compassionate people, we'd not do something that so obviously offends the sensibilities of other people.  Now is not a good time to build this mosque, as evidenced by the outpouring of people voicing against it.

Janet, this should answer your post as well.
no  
#43 | 1528 days ago

Perhaps another Museum of Tolerance should be built nearby to remember what can happen when one has so much hate in their heart.
yes  
#44 | 1528 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
Yes, in the name of Allah, not my words, that's the words of the terrorist.

Regardless of your personal belief, you were attacked on 9/11 just like the rest of us.  We're the infidels, and they want us wiped off the face of the earth, in the name of Allah.  You can scoff that if you wish, but one only has to listen to the words of Bin Laden to understand that this is reality.

This is my point.  Just because this slime ball scum bag uses Allah, doesn't mean the rest of the religion believes the same. 

Again, I'm not saying they shouldn't put it up.  It's their right to do so.  My hope is they build it and use it as a place to honor and grow closer to God.  That is the intended purpose of a mosque.  If the intended purpose and the result differ, then it's called a failure.  What is happening now is making the Muslims appear insensitive and hateful.  Not my opinion, but the opinion of those directly affected by 9/11.

My point is that the people who are attacking those who feel offended aren't using the same sensitivities they'd use if the situation were reversed.  If we were all indeed compassionate people, we'd not do something that so obviously offends the sensibilities of other people.  Now is not a good time to build this mosque, as evidenced by the outpouring of people voicing against it.

Janet, this should answer your post as well.
The problem I have, Scott, is that I don't think it will ever be a "good time" according to those who dissent.  And the longer we harbor and allow these types of prejudicial voices to control what goes on, the worse shape we'll be in as a society.  

And your statement is NOT actually the opinion of those directly affected by the 9/11 attack as I also knew people who died in that tragedy.  I blame those directly responsible for it, not those who happen to be of the same religion.  

I think those who oppose it are blinded by their hatred and anger (which, unfortunately seems to happen a lot in this country ... but that's for another time and poll) and that's just not acceptable to me or to the way this country is supposed to run.
yes  
#45 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

janet011685 wrote:
The problem I have, Scott, is that I don't think it will ever be a "good time" according to those who dissent.  And the longer we harbor and allow these types of prejudicial voices to control what goes on, the worse shape we'll be in as a society.  

And your statement is NOT actually the opinion of those directly affected by the 9/11 attack as I also knew people who died in that tragedy.  I blame those directly responsible for it, not those who happen to be of the same religion.  

I think those who oppose it are blinded by their hatred and anger (which, unfortunately seems to happen a lot in this country ... but that's for another time and poll) and that's just not acceptable to me or to the way this country is supposed to run.
"I think those who oppose it are blinded by their hatred and anger (which, unfortunately seems to happen a lot in this country ... but that's for another time and poll) and that's just not acceptable to me or to the way this country is supposed to run."

That's pretty much my point Janet.
no  
#46 | 1528 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
"I think those who oppose it are blinded by their hatred and anger (which, unfortunately seems to happen a lot in this country ... but that's for another time and poll) and that's just not acceptable to me or to the way this country is supposed to run."

That's pretty much my point Janet.
Then we are in agreement. I just love it when a plan comes together.
yes  
#47 | 1528 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
Yes, in the name of Allah, not my words, that's the words of the terrorist.

Regardless of your personal belief, you were attacked on 9/11 just like the rest of us.  We're the infidels, and they want us wiped off the face of the earth, in the name of Allah.  You can scoff that if you wish, but one only has to listen to the words of Bin Laden to understand that this is reality.

This is my point.  Just because this slime ball scum bag uses Allah, doesn't mean the rest of the religion believes the same. 

Again, I'm not saying they shouldn't put it up.  It's their right to do so.  My hope is they build it and use it as a place to honor and grow closer to God.  That is the intended purpose of a mosque.  If the intended purpose and the result differ, then it's called a failure.  What is happening now is making the Muslims appear insensitive and hateful.  Not my opinion, but the opinion of those directly affected by 9/11.

My point is that the people who are attacking those who feel offended aren't using the same sensitivities they'd use if the situation were reversed.  If we were all indeed compassionate people, we'd not do something that so obviously offends the sensibilities of other people.  Now is not a good time to build this mosque, as evidenced by the outpouring of people voicing against it.

Janet, this should answer your post as well.

I didnt say anything about what they did in "the name of Allah" for a reason. I know what happened that day. I also know that Allah had nothing to do with it, and I refuse to give the excuse any power, and their excuse is quite irrelevant to the question in my opinion.

I also was only trying to understand your point of view on the issue. I assumed that you would be able to explain your (and others) reasoning. . No more, no less.

#48 | 1528 days ago

Do I think it is ok no, Do I think its ok for sports hero's to do shots of enhancers and ruin a kids hero no, but it happens. Do I think its ok for people to have their own opinion yes, but it seems to be wrong...
no  
#49 | 1528 days ago
jerseybabe6131 (+)

(Edited by Jess)
I am just going to make this very very simple.....


                                                                     NO F***ING WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#50 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

janet011685 wrote:
Then we are in agreement. I just love it when a plan comes together.
Well, the day you and I are in agreement will be a great day for all the world to celebrate.


We're not completely in agreement though unfortunately.  But there's nothing to say that we have to be.  In fact, it's healthy for society to be in disagreement, it's the only way to come to any kind of truth.  We all see things through the prism of our faith, whether it's a faith in a Higher Power, a concept or system of political/social/economic beliefs.

In this instance, it's very difficult to separate emotion, or faith based opinions, with the reality of how to deal with an issue.  The unfortunate incident of 9/11 will forever paint the Muslims into a perceived position of 'enemy' by many people.  We cannot legislate or force people to change their minds.  The only way to change their mind is for the Muslims to live their faith as it's intended, and for people to see it's fruits.  This, unfortunately for the Muslims, hasn't happened yet, as evidenced by the outpouring of people against the building of this mosque.

It's the same for the Christians.  As you pointed out, many people demonize Christianity on the basis of the Crusades or Salem witch hunts/trials.  These, like 9/11, are unfortunate events in history that we cannot change.  These events paint Christians in a very poor light.  These events in no way mirror my belief system, yet the negative impact still exists.  I cannot force you to change your opinion of these events as they relate to my faith any more that you can force a change to the people who believe the Muslims are doing something that disregards the sensitivities of the victims of 9/11. 

I'd use Leigh's recent situation as another example.  She had an unfortunate event with a pastor of a Christian church that saddens me and others greatly.  In that thread people began to attack Christians as a group because of what one person did.  He's (the pastor) a dirt bag in my opinion.  But to me that's no different that people condemning the Muslims because of 9/11.  It's wrong on both counts.  And I think(?) we are in agreement on that.

So let the world rejoice! 
no  
#51 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

kobe_lova wrote:

I didnt say anything about what they did in "the name of Allah" for a reason. I know what happened that day. I also know that Allah had nothing to do with it, and I refuse to give the excuse any power, and their excuse is quite irrelevant to the question in my opinion.

I also was only trying to understand your point of view on the issue. I assumed that you would be able to explain your (and others) reasoning. . No more, no less.

I didn't say Allah did it.  I said the terrorists did it in the name of Allah.  Big difference.
no  
#52 | 1528 days ago

I have a general disdain and fear of all organized religions so focusing hatred upon one entire group for the act of a few just seems tacky. 
I too am of the thinking that there is nothing that says they can't build a muslim facility (mosque/juice bar/islamic community center/whatever) but it is in poor taste, and I'm definitely not in favor of it..
#53 | 1528 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
I didn't say Allah did it.  I said the terrorists did it in the name of Allah.  Big difference.
I understood.
#54 | 1528 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
Well, the day you and I are in agreement will be a great day for all the world to celebrate.


We're not completely in agreement though unfortunately.  But there's nothing to say that we have to be.  In fact, it's healthy for society to be in disagreement, it's the only way to come to any kind of truth.  We all see things through the prism of our faith, whether it's a faith in a Higher Power, a concept or system of political/social/economic beliefs.

In this instance, it's very difficult to separate emotion, or faith based opinions, with the reality of how to deal with an issue.  The unfortunate incident of 9/11 will forever paint the Muslims into a perceived position of 'enemy' by many people.  We cannot legislate or force people to change their minds.  The only way to change their mind is for the Muslims to live their faith as it's intended, and for people to see it's fruits.  This, unfortunately for the Muslims, hasn't happened yet, as evidenced by the outpouring of people against the building of this mosque.

It's the same for the Christians.  As you pointed out, many people demonize Christianity on the basis of the Crusades or Salem witch hunts/trials.  These, like 9/11, are unfortunate events in history that we cannot change.  These events paint Christians in a very poor light.  These events in no way mirror my belief system, yet the negative impact still exists.  I cannot force you to change your opinion of these events as they relate to my faith any more that you can force a change to the people who believe the Muslims are doing something that disregards the sensitivities of the victims of 9/11. 

I'd use Leigh's recent situation as another example.  She had an unfortunate event with a pastor of a Christian church that saddens me and others greatly.  In that thread people began to attack Christians as a group because of what one person did.  He's (the pastor) a dirt bag in my opinion.  But to me that's no different that people condemning the Muslims because of 9/11.  It's wrong on both counts.  And I think(?) we are in agreement on that.

So let the world rejoice! 
Yes we are in agreement on that.  That is the basis for my argument on this thread.  We can't (reasonably or logically) lump ALL members of any one group together and condemn/punish them for the actions of a misguided, fanatical few.  

Christians with the Crusades/witch trials/Inquisition = Muslims with 9/11 and other terror attacks in recent years.  

Just as we, as a society, shouldn't discriminate against Christians for what happened years ago (or more recent events that were performed be a few), we also shouldn't discriminate against Muslims for the actions of a few radicals.

So yes, we have finally agreed on something ... weird.  It is a good day.  
yes  
#55 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

kobe_lova wrote:
I understood.
Then I guess I don't understand your beef? 
no  
#56 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

janet011685 wrote:
Yes we are in agreement on that.  That is the basis for my argument on this thread.  We can't (reasonably or logically) lump ALL members of any one group together and condemn/punish them for the actions of a misguided, fanatical few.  

Christians with the Crusades/witch trials/Inquisition = Muslims with 9/11 and other terror attacks in recent years.  

Just as we, as a society, shouldn't discriminate against Christians for what happened years ago (or more recent events that were performed be a few), we also shouldn't discriminate against Muslims for the actions of a few radicals.

So yes, we have finally agreed on something ... weird.  It is a good day.  
I'm going to celebrate by getting drunk.
no  
#57 | 1528 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
Then I guess I don't understand your beef? 
i never had one. Like i said, I wanted to know what you were thinking, and now i do.
#58 | 1528 days ago

(Edited by WISAC1)
pretty sure there is already a mosque in the general area, one more, so what.  would everyone be happier if that crack-pot Jerry Falwell, or some crooks like Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker built a church there?
yes  
#59 | 1528 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
I'm going to celebrate by getting drunk.
And I'm going to go have a shot of pancake.  
yes  
#60 | 1528 days ago

The building site isnt that close to ground zero..but of course media wants to take the ball and run with it as usual.....Do we not all have freedom of religion?  As long as the funds are legal and not backed by any terrorist organization, we must ,as americans respect our constitution, weathe rwe agree or not.....There are many wonderful muslims , the majority are peaceful and respectful....the media and politics are making this an issue....Of course 911 was a tragedy, never to be forgotten,,however it willb e in vein if we do not allow freedoms to all citizens prevail.....all religions have extremists....even our own organized religions based on christian beliefs...many KKK members go to baptist churches ,yet what they do is wrong..Look at westboro baptist church....Tim MC Veigh....all "christians, yet support  hatred and extreme behavior...we may not like it because of what happened on sept 11th..however i must side with the constitution on this one
no  
#61 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

kobe_lova wrote:
i never had one. Like i said, I wanted to know what you were thinking, and now i do.
Good. 
no  
#62 | 1528 days ago

I am Canadian, not American, but one quote I read said "building the mosque so close to ground zero is pretty much like the Japanese wanting to build a war memorial at Pearl Harbour"  Do I believe they are alike? No, but I understand that logic and how much it hurts. 

I'm not sure how I would feel were I directly affected.  I believe in religious freedom, so I think the Muslims should be able to build their mosque, however, I truly hope it is used for good, to cement good relations between Muslims and Americans.

#63 | 1528 days ago

Debi_L wrote:

I am Canadian, not American, but one quote I read said "building the mosque so close to ground zero is pretty much like the Japanese wanting to build a war memorial at Pearl Harbour"  Do I believe they are alike? No, but I understand that logic and how much it hurts. 

I'm not sure how I would feel were I directly affected.  I believe in religious freedom, so I think the Muslims should be able to build their mosque, however, I truly hope it is used for good, to cement good relations between Muslims and Americans.

One of my coworkers made that argument the other day about it (the Japanese/Pearl Harbor thing) and like you said, they really are not alike.
And, like you, I hope if it goes through it is used for good.  However, if it doesn't, we'll never have a chance to find out.  Another bridge burned before it even gets a chance to be built.
yes  
#64 | 1528 days ago
cubsgirl2 (+)

Diablorain wrote:
its just a big slap in the face to me...
 Why? I dont understand that I really don't   

I fiqure i'll let Janet and Ashlie get Scott and I'll get you. 
yes  
#65 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

cubsgirl2 wrote:
 Why? I dont understand that I really don't   

I fiqure i'll let Janet and Ashlie get Scott and I'll get you. 
If you don't get why it's a slap in the face after reading my responses, you may never get it....
no  
#66 | 1528 days ago
cubsgirl2 (+)

(Edited by cubsgirl2)
huskerfan_ia wrote:
If you don't get why it's a slap in the face after reading my responses, you may never get it....
 I didnt say that to you scott. I said it to  Diablorian, I read every word you said. And do see your point. 
And I disagree with a lot of it too. But we have never seen eye to eye on this kind of stuff.   No I do not see why it's a slap in the face. These people are not the ones who flew the planes, they are Americans too.
yes  
#67 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

(Edited by huskerfan_ia)
cubsgirl2 wrote:
 I didnt say that to you scott. I said it to  Diablorian, I read every word you said. And do see your point. 
And I disagree with a lot of it too. But we have never seen eye to eye on this kind of stuff.   No I do not see why it's a slap in the face. These people are not the ones who flew the planes, they are Americans too.
Okay, I can respect that you want look for another opinion, but your post made it sound like you didn't see my point.

Edit:  since you edited your post I need to edit mine.  You don't see my point, you think you do because you're predisposed to disagree with me, I suggest you read them again, this time with a small amount of respect and open mindedness.
no  
#68 | 1528 days ago

(Edited by Jess)
I would consider it a slap in the face if Osama Bin Laden or the Al-Qaeda came over and wanted to build some sort of convention center, but I'm willing to bet several innocent Muslims died that day in those towers too. These are not followers of those terrorists wanting to build a memorial statue as a tribute to those horrible people or what they did on 9/11. It's simply a positive community center and church.

I despise terrorism, domestic and foreign, but this act of terrorism did not come from Muslims as a group, just as acts of terrorism by Catholics, etc. do not come from those religions as a group. These are radicals; extremists, and the fear and hatred some people feel toward others because of their acts just gives them the power they seek.

(edited to fix a typo..."of" to "if")
yes  
#69 | 1528 days ago
cubsgirl2 (+)

huskerfan_ia wrote:
Okay, I can respect that you want look for another opinion, but your post made it sound like you didn't see my point.

Edit:  since you edited your post I need to edit mine.  You don't see my point, you think you do because you're predisposed to disagree with me, I suggest you read them again, this time with a small amount of respect and open mindedness.
 Scott I have always respected your opinion. Not only respect it but value it as well and you know that. We just have a basic disagreement on these issues.  And as far as open mindedness goes, I am a very open minded person. Now if you want to make this personal go ahead. But I will not. 
yes  
#70 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

Jess wrote:
I would consider it a slap in the face if Osama Bin Laden or the Al-Qaeda came over and wanted to build some sort of convention center, but I'm willing to bet several innocent Muslims died that day in those towers too. These are not followers of those terrorists wanting to build a memorial statue as a tribute to those horrible people or what they did on 9/11. It's simply a positive community center and church.

I despise terrorism, domestic and foreign, but this act of terrorism did not come from Muslims as a group, just as acts of terrorism by Catholics, etc. do not come from those religions as a group. These are radicals; extremists, and the fear and hatred some people feel toward others because of their acts just gives them the power they seek.

(edited to fix a typo..."of" to "if")
I agree with you Jess but I think the problem is there have been too many instances where these mosques have been anything but what we hope they are.

Many times they are a way for people to funnel money to terrorists.  This is a reason many people have for being against them.  To me the Muslim's have a real issue here.  They need to do more to prove to people they are just what you're saying they are, a community center, a religious center, etc.  Not a feeder for terrorists to receive capital. 

To many people, a mosque is a symbol of hatred, a center for assisting our enemies.  This is not just my opinion, this is the opinion of many in Muslim leadership as well.  They're very aware they haven't done enough to debunk many misconceptions about their faith.  They haven't publicly spoken against the people who hijack their religion for their own political gain.  

If the Catholic Church didn't come out against pedophile priests, we'd revolt against that church en masse.  And we'd be right to do so.  The Muslims need to do a better job of PR.  We can't just make people accept what has happened in the past and be tolerant if the Muslim leadership will do nothing to boost it's own reputation.
no  
#71 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

cubsgirl2 wrote:
 Scott I have always respected your opinion. Not only respect it but value it as well and you know that. We just have a basic disagreement on these issues.  And as far as open mindedness goes, I am a very open minded person. Now if you want to make this personal go ahead. But I will not. 
Sorry, but you made it personal in your initial post to Diablorain.


As far as the basic disagreement, you have yet to articulate what that is.
no  
#72 | 1528 days ago
cubsgirl2 (+)

(Edited by cubsgirl2)
huskerfan_ia wrote:
Sorry, but you made it personal in your initial post to Diablorain.


As far as the basic disagreement, you have yet to articulate what that is.
 I disagree with the opinion that in this country where all are equal some people feel that others do not have a right to build a place of worship where they want to.  that instead of seeing Americans wanting to build it they are seeing the terrorists that flew planes into those buildings.    That is my disagreement. And I hope it is articulate enough for you.  I do know this, I will not let what happened on 9/11 change me. And my belief in this country and it's freedoms. If anything it made them stronger. 
yes  
#73 | 1528 days ago
cubsgirl2 (+)

(Edited by cubsgirl2)
 And Scott I do see your point. I see where you are thinking of the families that are still grieving, so am I.  But muslims died that day also. (no not the terrorists).  I see your point about the  anti -  christian movement as well, because I agree there is one.  I see people taking the parts of the bible they agree with and keeping it, and throwing out what they dont.  But to me the bottom line in this argument is not the bible or religion it is the constitutional rights that we all have. 


And thats the only way I know how to say it. 
yes  
#74 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

cubsgirl2 wrote:
 I disagree with the opinion that in this country where all are equal some people feel that others do not have a right to build a place of worship where they want to.  that instead of seeing Americans wanting to build it they are seeing the terrorists that flew planes into those buildings.    That is my disagreement. And I hope it is articulate enough for you.  I do know this, I will not let what happened on 9/11 change me. And my belief in this country and it's freedoms. If anything it made them stronger. 
Nicely done.  Thanks.

First, in this country there is nothing that says we are all equal.  We are all created equal, which means we are all starting at the same point.  With certain unalienable rights (we all have the same rights) including life (the right to live) liberty (the right to live without fear of government, in other words - freedom) and the pursuit of happiness.  Obviously you cannot have everyone equal, we all have different desires, opinions, work ethic, etc, but we all have the same opportunity, freedom, right to life and ability to pursue our own happiness, however we may define that, as long as we don't infringe on the liberties of others while doing so.

Second, we don't have the right to build anything, anywhere we want.  We have the right to pursue our interests and have the right to desire, but we are still accountable to others, mainly the government, in order to gain the right.  If I wanted to build a nuclear power plant, I don't have the right to do so until I obtain that right.  And part of that process is ensuring that I don't impede on other peoples liberty.

Thirdly, we agree on history, terrorists flew planes into the World Trade Center, killing thousands of people like you and me.  Based on this act of terror, people have formed an opinion, which is their right, and we cannot force our opinion on them, it must be changed by showing them that they're wrong, by acts, not words.

Where we disagree is where the responsibility lies to solve this issue.

If someone had a negative opinion of me, is it their responsibility to change, or mine to prove them wrong?  Many believe as you that it's up to the people with the opinion to straighten out and fly right.  Which, is only partially true.  In my example, the onus is on me to prove that person wrong, and on that person to be open minded and forgiving.

The Muslims have done very little in the eyes of most people to show they are tolerant of the rights our country holds dear, primarily that of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Before peoples opinions can be changed, acts like building a mosque at the site of the most heinous crime in our history will continue to be viewed as acts of hostility toward our way of life.  Like I said, many Muslim leaders echo this view.  They know they have a problem here. 
no  
#75 | 1528 days ago
cubsgirl2 (+)

(Edited by cubsgirl2)
huskerfan_ia wrote:
Nicely done.  Thanks.

First, in this country there is nothing that says we are all equal.  We are all created equal, which means we are all starting at the same point.  With certain unalienable rights (we all have the same rights) including life (the right to live) liberty (the right to live without fear of government, in other words - freedom) and the pursuit of happiness.  Obviously you cannot have everyone equal, we all have different desires, opinions, work ethic, etc, but we all have the same opportunity, freedom, right to life and ability to pursue our own happiness, however we may define that, as long as we don't infringe on the liberties of others while doing so.

Second, we don't have the right to build anything, anywhere we want.  We have the right to pursue our interests and have the right to desire, but we are still accountable to others, mainly the government, in order to gain the right.  If I wanted to build a nuclear power plant, I don't have the right to do so until I obtain that right.  And part of that process is ensuring that I don't impede on other peoples liberty.

Thirdly, we agree on history, terrorists flew planes into the World Trade Center, killing thousands of people like you and me.  Based on this act of terror, people have formed an opinion, which is their right, and we cannot force our opinion on them, it must be changed by showing them that they're wrong, by acts, not words.

Where we disagree is where the responsibility lies to solve this issue.

If someone had a negative opinion of me, is it their responsibility to change, or mine to prove them wrong?  Many believe as you that it's up to the people with the opinion to straighten out and fly right.  Which, is only partially true.  In my example, the onus is on me to prove that person wrong, and on that person to be open minded and forgiving.

The Muslims have done very little in the eyes of most people to show they are tolerant of the rights our country holds dear, primarily that of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Before peoples opinions can be changed, acts like building a mosque at the site of the most heinous crime in our history will continue to be viewed as acts of hostility toward our way of life.  Like I said, many Muslim leaders echo this view.  They know they have a problem here. 
 Ok I agree. Except with the last. The American Muslims have lived quietly since 9/11 I believe in fear. Now have Muslim leaders from other countries done the same? No, and they do need to realize they are making it harder for the ones here. But perhaps that is their goal. Perhaps these Americans are now seen as infidels as well.  And yes the extremists in this religion hate us and our way of life.And would like nothing more that to see us all dead. I know this.  But by being so against this we are giving them what they want, an excuse to spread more hate against us.   Ok does that explain the way I feel better? 

And of course this is just my opinion, and could be very wrong. But I would like to believe the American Muslims in this country the ones who are here because they want this way of life, is worth the risk. 


On second thought I guess we both said the same thing, so I guess I agree with all of it. 
yes  
#76 | 1528 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

cubsgirl2 wrote:
 Ok I agree. Except with the last. The American Muslims have lived quietly since 9/11 I believe in fear. Now have Muslim leaders from other countries done the same? No, and they do need to realize they are making it harder for the ones here. But perhaps that is their goal. Perhaps these Americans are now seen as infidels as well.  And yes the extremists in this religion hate us and our way of life.And would like nothing more that to see us all dead. I know this.  But by being so against this we are giving them what they want, an excuse to spread more hate against us.   Ok does that explain the way I feel better? 

And of course this is just my opinion, and could be very wrong. But I would like to believe the American Muslims in this country the ones who are here because they want this way of life, is worth the risk. 


On second thought I guess we both said the same thing, so I guess I agree with all of it. 
Yes the extreme element of the Muslim's (much like the extreme element of other religions) believe that those that don't fall in line with their way of thinking are infidels as well.   Though I think they call them something else, not sure without research.

Anyway, Muslims here, if they are in fear, it's not from us in general, it's from the radical element of their religion.  While there is the occasional ignorant JimBob running around out there calling Muslims 'towel head', for the most part Americans are very tolerant of other people and cultures, therefore there is no reason to fear us.

The leadership however is fearful of how they are perceived by the radical element.  This is a significant problem for all of us.  Because we cannot as a society trust a group of people bent on killing us, and as long as the radical element has the majority held hostage through it's leaders, they will continue to play us against ourselves as it takes the focus off of the important part, them.

We're fighting this war on the wrong front and our enemy is playing us like a flute.  Until we figure that out, we'll lose.  We're declaring war on ourselves through our culture and we're forgetting who our real enemy is.... those guys who want us dead.

And yes you did well explaining yourself.  But in doing so you've shown that we don't disagree much at all.   
no  
#77 | 1528 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
Yes the extreme element of the Muslim's (much like the extreme element of other religions) believe that those that don't fall in line with their way of thinking are infidels as well.   Though I think they call them something else, not sure without research.

Anyway, Muslims here, if they are in fear, it's not from us in general, it's from the radical element of their religion.  While there is the occasional ignorant JimBob running around out there calling Muslims 'towel head', for the most part Americans are very tolerant of other people and cultures, therefore there is no reason to fear us.

The leadership however is fearful of how they are perceived by the radical element.  This is a significant problem for all of us.  Because we cannot as a society trust a group of people bent on killing us, and as long as the radical element has the majority held hostage through it's leaders, they will continue to play us against ourselves as it takes the focus off of the important part, them.

We're fighting this war on the wrong front and our enemy is playing us like a flute.  Until we figure that out, we'll lose.  We're declaring war on ourselves through our culture and we're forgetting who our real enemy is.... those guys who want us dead.

And yes you did well explaining yourself.  But in doing so you've shown that we don't disagree much at all.   
I just used up my last respect, but it was well worth it. While I may not agree with you on the question of whether or not building a mosque near GZ is "ok" (in any way, shape, or form), you make some great points. Very well said, Scott.
yes  
#78 | 1528 days ago
NorseHeathen (+)

Wow, the thread took off today.  I'm OOR for the day, but I'll catch up tomorrow....
#79 | 1528 days ago

After reading all of this, I stand my responses, possibly even more so. I actually now believe it's blatant narrow-mindedness which of course, I don't care for.
#80 | 1528 days ago

Why can't they build it further away? have the Muslims even discussed that? at least compromise. I see no problem with building of the community center and mosque. But, even if built in the present location, the anger won't go away from ppl against it.
#81 | 1528 days ago

Drummer99 wrote:
Why can't they build it further away? have the Muslims even discussed that? at least compromise. I see no problem with building of the community center and mosque. But, even if built in the present location, the anger won't go away from ppl against it.
true. the anger wont go away, so it may be in their best interest to compromise. I can see the attacks on the mosque now...
#82 | 1528 days ago
cubsgirl2 (+)

kobe_lova wrote:
true. the anger wont go away, so it may be in their best interest to compromise. I can see the attacks on the mosque now...
 I am so afraid of that too. 
yes  
#83 | 1527 days ago

"...those who feel like they can intimidate our fellow citizens to take out their anger don't represent the best of America,they represent the worst of humankind,and should be ashamed of that type of behavior."    George W. Bush, Sept.17,2001
#84 | 1526 days ago
NorseHeathen (+)

I have to admit, I haven't read the comments presented in the past few days; I apologize as I've been extremely busy.  I did, however, come across an article that I believe will help to add some perspective: www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php

I will do my best to catch up tomorrow....
#85 | 1526 days ago

 Being opposed to an Islamic community center that will be several blocks away from Ground Zero is like being opposed to priests being around children because a few of them can't control their urges. Actually, it makes more sense to be opposed to the priests thing considering the Church refuses to do anything about that.
yes  
#86 | 1526 days ago

(Edited by kantwistaye)
Diablorain wrote:
its just a big slap in the face to me...
 Because all Muslims are the same? Seriously, this is ridiculous. I realize xenophobia, racism and so on grow during tough economic times but this has been quite possibly the most disheartening summer of my life (granted, I am young).  The blatant race baiting and hatred on any one who is slightly different (the tyranny of the majority that the Founders were talking about [which makes the Rights's bitching during the health care debate look even dumber than it did before but that's for a different time]), is just depressing. Simple commonsense (not Sarah Palin's kind) has been lost. Logic and reason have been thrown to the way side. Anti-intellectualism rules and its wrong.  The only opposition to this is hatred and ignorance.  Hopefully, Park 51 overcomes this and is able to build their community center because its their RIGHT and for us to take that away would be a horrible mistake.
yes  
#87 | 1526 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

kantwistaye wrote:
 Being opposed to an Islamic community center that will be several blocks away from Ground Zero is like being opposed to priests being around children because a few of them can't control their urges. Actually, it makes more sense to be opposed to the priests thing considering the Church refuses to do anything about that.
Wow, so you're anti-Catholic just like some are anti-Muslim?

In fact, your statement probably has more ignorance and hatred than any other on here, except you have it directed at a different religious group and you're making the same broad accusations about them as the people you're attacking....


ps.  this may be a different topic, but the Catholic Church (of which I am not a member and probably more in opposition to what they do than in support of) has done more about pedophile priests than the muslim community has done in coming out against terrorists.
no  
#88 | 1526 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
Wow, so you're anti-Catholic just like some are anti-Muslim?

In fact, your statement probably has more ignorance and hatred than any other on here, except you have it directed at a different religious group and you're making the same broad accusations about them as the people you're attacking....


ps.  this may be a different topic, but the Catholic Church (of which I am not a member and probably more in opposition to what they do than in support of) has done more about pedophile priests than the muslim community has done in coming out against terrorists.
 No, the whole point of my statement was that its absolutely ridiculous to convict an entire group of people for the wrongs of the minority. Also, because we only do this to minorities, I put the focus on a majority.

p.s. - I'd disagree with your p.s. The current Pope's former job was basically to cover up the scandals. I don't think we'd want to see any of his work, which is kind of the other problem - nobody knows how bad it is, just that is bad. But, that's for another time. Still not right to put the sins of a few on everyone though.
yes  
#89 | 1526 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

kantwistaye wrote:
 No, the whole point of my statement was that its absolutely ridiculous to convict an entire group of people for the wrongs of the minority. Also, because we only do this to minorities, I put the focus on a majority.

p.s. - I'd disagree with your p.s. The current Pope's former job was basically to cover up the scandals. I don't think we'd want to see any of his work, which is kind of the other problem - nobody knows how bad it is, just that is bad. But, that's for another time. Still not right to put the sins of a few on everyone though.
Swing and a miss buddy.  Minority?  Really?  There are 1.13 billion Catholics according to the Vatican.  There are an estimated 1.3 billion Muslims.

Regardless of that, the fact that anyone is in a minority is irrelevant.  Right and wrong doesn't change just because one group is a minority. 

Additionally, I agree with you about the Catholic Church.  They've failed miserably with the pedophile issue.  There is evidence of cover up, all the way to the top.  But that wasn't my point.  My point was they have done more to voice against this than the Muslims have done to voice against terrorists. 
no  
#90 | 1526 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
Swing and a miss buddy.  Minority?  Really?  There are 1.13 billion Catholics according to the Vatican.  There are an estimated 1.3 billion Muslims.

Regardless of that, the fact that anyone is in a minority is irrelevant.  Right and wrong doesn't change just because one group is a minority. 

Additionally, I agree with you about the Catholic Church.  They've failed miserably with the pedophile issue.  There is evidence of cover up, all the way to the top.  But that wasn't my point.  My point was they have done more to voice against this than the Muslims have done to voice against terrorists. 
 Minority here in the US.  And I wasn't arguing for anything to be done to Catholic priests.  I was just pointing out that we can play this silly "too close" game with anyone and its utter BS that we're picking on one group simply because they are a minority here in America. Should white people not be allowed near doctors since a few of them have killed abortion doctors? Obviously not, but its the same line of reasoning that is opposing the building of this community center.
yes  
#91 | 1526 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

kantwistaye wrote:
 Minority here in the US.  And I wasn't arguing for anything to be done to Catholic priests.  I was just pointing out that we can play this silly "too close" game with anyone and its utter BS that we're picking on one group simply because they are a minority here in America. Should white people not be allowed near doctors since a few of them have killed abortion doctors? Obviously not, but its the same line of reasoning that is opposing the building of this community center.
It's still irrelevant.  Just because someone is a minority or majority, doesn't mean they're held to a different standard.

And it's ridiculous to say this is all because they're a minority.  The race card doesn't work here, the Muslims are in control of how people view them, and they've done nothing to improve how they're viewed.

If they'd come out and say they don't support the terrorists who claim their religion, then we'd be on our way.  Has nothing to do with the fact they're a minority. 

In fact, using your logic, you could make the same case for Catholics, they are a hell of a lot more non-Catholics in this country than the rest of us, making them a minority.
no  
#92 | 1526 days ago

(Edited by kantwistaye)
huskerfan_ia wrote:
It's still irrelevant.  Just because someone is a minority or majority, doesn't mean they're held to a different standard.

And it's ridiculous to say this is all because they're a minority.  The race card doesn't work here, the Muslims are in control of how people view them, and they've done nothing to improve how they're viewed.

If they'd come out and say they don't support the terrorists who claim their religion, then we'd be on our way.  Has nothing to do with the fact they're a minority. 

In fact, using your logic, you could make the same case for Catholics, they are a hell of a lot more non-Catholics in this country than the rest of us, making them a minority.
 But being a minority DOES matter. It shouldn't (I think we agree completely there), but they way people are treated changes when theare not the majority.  If this was a Catholic Church being built next to a giant school of 8 year old boys right by Ground Zero nobody would care (and shouldn't care).

Also, this Imam has been strongly against terrorism.  That's not the issue.  Its blatant hatred of someone who is different that is causing this backlash. Nothing more, nothing less.
yes  
#93 | 1526 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

kantwistaye wrote:
 But being a minority DOES matter. It shouldn't (I think we agree completely there), but they way people are treated changes when theare not the majority.  If this was a Catholic Church being built next to a giant school of 8 year old boys right by Ground Zero nobody would care (and shouldn't care).

Also, this Imam has been strongly against terrorism.  That's not the issue.  Its blatant hatred of someone who is different that is causing this backlash. Nothing more, nothing less.
Well, we'll disagree on that. I think it's a double standard to make assumptions about one group over another based on skin color or numbers. If there is hatred against the Muslims, it's not because of race, it's because of the actions of a few, and the inaction of the majority of them. They don't get a pass just because their skin has a different tint or because they are fewer in number.

I'd like to see where this Iman has come out publicly against Muslim terrorists. I've been hoping to see that since 9/11.
no  
#94 | 1526 days ago

huskerfan_ia wrote:
Well, we'll disagree on that. I think it's a double standard to make assumptions about one group over another based on skin color or numbers. If there is hatred against the Muslims, it's not because of race, it's because of the actions of a few, and the inaction of the majority of them. They don't get a pass just because their skin has a different tint or because they are fewer in number.

I'd like to see where this Iman has come out publicly against Muslim terrorists. I've been hoping to see that since 9/11.
 Then why do Catholic priests get a free pass? Its the same thing. You can't convict the majority for the wrongs of the minority.

Also, this.
yes  
#95 | 1526 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

kantwistaye wrote:
 Then why do Catholic priests get a free pass? Its the same thing. You can't convict the majority for the wrongs of the minority.

Also, this.
Never said they did.  In fact, scroll up, they're held to the same standard.  My point is they've done more, not perfect in fact they need to keep going.  Personally I'm more livid about that issue than I am about Muslims lack of accountability.

And thanks for the link, I'll explore it soon, heading into a meeting.
no  
#96 | 1526 days ago
huskerfan_ia (+)

kantwistaye wrote:
 Then why do Catholic priests get a free pass? Its the same thing. You can't convict the majority for the wrongs of the minority.

Also, this.
(Referencing the linked article)

This is exactly the kind of information I'm talking about using.

Instead of calling people racist and xenophobic, use information like this to help educate people.  Your approach only inflames the situation, and bringing the Catholic Church into the discussion does nothing to advance the cause, only inflames it further. 

Your initial post was an attack (on Diablorin) whereby you attempted to shame someone into accepting your position by demoralizing them using the race card.  (I think personal attacks are against the CoC, maybe I should ask a mod about that...)
no  
#97 | 1526 days ago

wow

Post a Comment   Already a user? Sign in here
Join FanIQ - It's Free
FanIQ is the ultimate free community for sports fans.
Talk sports with fans from all over - 1,649,417+ Comments
Track your game picks - 38,670,182,382+ Sports Predictions
Prove you know sports - 116,275+ Trivia Questions
Find fans of your teams - 11,453,110+ New Friends
F/E 10/23
Asked by kobe_lova | Locker Room | 1 questions asked Yesterday
6 opinions | 24 comments | Last by hskrdave
Punchy & Delighted
Asked by marcus_nyce | Locker Room | 1 questions asked 10/20/14
6 opinions | 33 comments | Last by Dream_Machine
giffy - may 27, 2014
Asked by ms_hippie_queen | Locker Room | 1 questions asked 05/27/14
6 opinions | 10 comments | Last by Dream_Machine
who said it: special edition
Asked by ms_hippie_queen | Locker Room | 6 questions asked Yesterday
30 opinions | 2 comments | Last by icfeet
hope this helps
Asked by ms_hippie_queen | Locker Room | 1 questions asked 10/22/14
4 opinions | 11 comments | Last by Jess