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Asked By: johnsward66


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How can the UFC Heavyweight div. be made more fair without splitting it; heavy/super-heavy ? (Edited 07/26/09 03:00PM by johnsward66)
For the past few weeks I've wacthed with growing unease the back & forth arguments about the fairness/unfairness of the 206 - 265 weight div. " It's ludicrous to have one weight div. cover as much range as the other 4 div. combined! How can this possibly be considered even sane? It's like Nate Diaz VS Quinton Jackson; it's nuts!!"..... { OR ON THE OTHER HAND} ....... "You can't cut up an already week div. there are only 5 - 10 people who would be comfortable in the superheavyweight div. & it would dilute fan interest along with the talent pool."         I Believe the solution might be to make the heavyweights a "natural weight division." In other words, take cutting weight out of the heavyweight equation. How, you ask? Well, on fight night , say a half hour before the fight is supposed to take place; have the fighters step on the scales again. If the fighter's weight exceeds one pound over 265 the fighter in question automatically forfeits 1/5 of his purse to his opponent. Also if it is a championship match & the challenger doesnt make weight the match becomes a nontitle fight. Of course the UFC could impose other fines & penalties it chose to make it financial suicide for the offender. I know full well some will say " Brock, Shane, et al can't get down to a healthy walking around weight of 266," B. S.! Joe Riggs used to be super heavyweight & now fights at middle & welter weight. all one has to do  is a little more aerobics & lay off the weights/"protein?!cocktails" and presto, 265. Sixty lbs. is already too big a div.from a logical perspective, if not a business one; but being allowed to rehydrate up to 285 thus making it a div. larger than the next F I V E  down is truly criminal.
| Closed on 08/24/11 at 05:00AM
FanIQ Pts? No | MMA | Multiple Choice Opinion Poll
Team Breakout:
42 Fans 
2%a. " jus' luv me some Brock Lesnar". Skeet Skeet, Skeet!
2%b. "D#mn, F*ck, H&ll, you make my head hurt with all this D^mn thinkin'.
33%c. It's fine just the way it is.
2%d. Just make the division 206 - 255
19%e. Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.
10%f. The UFC has weight divisions?
31%g. We need a superheavyweight division!

 &nbp;
TOP COMMENT * * * * * * * * * * * *
#3 | 1398 days ago

 (Edited by johnsward66)
Maybe next time they could put Lesnar in with a leukemia patiant or a recent prison camp escapee, that way he could have an even more dominant fight? Or, better yet, skip Brock all together & just send in some baby ducks to face a hungry tiger or two.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  
6

  
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#1 | 1398 days ago
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  
1

#2 | 1398 days ago
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  
1

#3 | 1398 days ago

 (Edited by johnsward66)
Maybe next time they could put Lesnar in with a leukemia patiant or a recent prison camp escapee, that way he could have an even more dominant fight? Or, better yet, skip Brock all together & just send in some baby ducks to face a hungry tiger or two.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  
6

#4 | 1398 days ago
EdSpeshel (+)

I don't see what the big deal is.  Everyone says Brock is beatable and the only reason he wins is because he's bigger than anyone else.  Then those same people say that Couture would have beaten Brock if he was younger... not bigger.  Mir beat him the first time because he was smarter.  Guys go on streaks... the same thing was said about Sylvia and how tall he was... now look at him.  Fighters figured him out just like they will Lesnar eventually... and Machida... and GSP... and Silva... and Fedor.... well maybe not Fedor.  Speaking of Fedor, he routinely fights guys that are much bigger than he is.  They might be considered cans but the size isn't an issue with him, why should it be for the UFC? 

One option I guess would be to have to make weight within a few hrs of the fight.  I guess I don't know what a safe time limit would be for the fighters.  Make weigh-ins closer to fight time.  I wouldn't have an issue with that.

It's fine just the way it is.  
4

#5 | 1397 days ago

 I really dont think it can be, with freaks of nature like brock lesnar and kimbo slice. You could have a superheavyweight division but let anyone one weight class under participate. That way there is no unfair advantage the guy underweight agrees to fight a heavier fighter.
In a title fight , if the underweight wins he has to defend against people of that division. . . . and like any divison he'd have to beat some guys to get a title shot.
We need a superheavyweight division!  
1

#6 | 1396 days ago

 robrobrob17 wrote:
I really dont think it can be, with freaks of nature like brock lesnar and kimbo slice. You could have a superheavyweight division but let anyone one weight class under participate. That way there is no unfair advantage the guy underweight agrees to fight a heavier fighter.
In a title fight , if the underweight wins he has to defend against people of that division. . . . and like any divison he'd have to beat some guys to get a title shot.
The simplest solution is the one that usually works best & is most likely to be adopted. Weighing in an hour or so before the fight is probably the best way to go but the UFC brass would still probably want them to the day before with everyone else just for the pageantry of the thing. I wonder why this whole "cutting to make weight" to alow an unfair advantage was started in the 1st place? Even thogh the discrepancies are not as glaring in the lower divisions the practice still serves no purpose except to reward the one who is better at cutting.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  
1

#7 | 1396 days ago

 i like the natural weight idea. weighing in the day before is stupid. you got people like alves being 170 one day and 200 the next night is that fair to the next man? hope to see it happen one day...
2

#8 | 1396 days ago

 robrobrob17 wrote:
I really dont think it can be, with freaks of nature like brock lesnar and kimbo slice. You could have a superheavyweight division but let anyone one weight class under participate. That way there is no unfair advantage the guy underweight agrees to fight a heavier fighter.
In a title fight , if the underweight wins he has to defend against people of that division. . . . and like any divison he'd have to beat some guys to get a title shot.

One may indeed be a freak of nature, or may be a freak of chemicals. The other may be a freak of marketing, or possibly just a freak.

Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  
1

#9 | 1395 days ago

 None of the fighters have anything against it....it seems only the fans who hate certain Bigger fighters that have a problem.
It's fine just the way it is.  

#10 | 1395 days ago

 fourtime7 wrote:
i like the natural weight idea. weighing in the day before is stupid. you got people like alves being 170 one day and 200 the next night is that fair to the next man? hope to see it happen one day...
Most every fighter regardless of weight class cuts before a fight. Making weigh ins the day of the fight is not a solution. You need that day to rehydrate yourself. Regardless of what Joe Rogan may have said there is no way that Alves put back on 30 lbs in less then 24 hours. Keep in mind that GSP also was 10- 15 pounds over.
It's fine just the way it is.  
2

#11 | 1395 days ago
EdSpeshel (+)

brianmc0331 wrote:
Most every fighter regardless of weight class cuts before a fight. Making weigh ins the day of the fight is not a solution. You need that day to rehydrate yourself. Regardless of what Joe Rogan may have said there is no way that Alves put back on 30 lbs in less then 24 hours. Keep in mind that GSP also was 10- 15 pounds over.
They wouldn't need that time to re-hydrate if they weren't cutting so much weight... that's the point I think he's trying to make here.
It's fine just the way it is.  
2

#12 | 1395 days ago

 EdSpeshel wrote:
They wouldn't need that time to re-hydrate if they weren't cutting so much weight... that's the point I think he's trying to make here.
I understand that but its not just one fighter that is cutting it is the entire sport. I fight as a amateur at 170 and to get there i have to cut 5 -10 pounds if I fought at 185 i would be giving up 10 pounds or more so i prefer to fight at 170. The only way to make it to where people we not cutting would be to add many more weight classes and have them in 5 pound increments instead of 15 that way everyone would be able to fight at a more natural weight. That will not happen though and isn't very practical because people would still try to seize the perceived advantage and still cut to make lower weight classes.
It's fine just the way it is.  
2

#13 | 1395 days ago

 Not having to cut weight at all would remove the stress of trying to cut, & the inequalities of gross disproportionality at the time of the fight. The only downside is that people who are used to cutting down might rather have to bulk up to the next highest division. This is much preferable as it is something that could be done slowly & safely over a 12 or so week time period, not over one or two days through stressful dehydration. In addition, the lower weight divisions are not the problem anyway. The problem is the 80 lbs spread of the heavyweights after the rehydration of the monsters at the top end.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  
2

#14 | 1395 days ago

 It really comes down to choice. If you choose to fight in the HW division then you choose to fight against potentially much larger opponents. Many smaller HW have transitioned to LHW who felt that would be better for them. Like I stated before no fighter that I am aware of has ever complained about fighting the larger HW's. As far as not having to cut weight, no fighter has to do anything they make that choice for the reason that they feel they have the advantage at a particular division. As long as there is any kind of division there will always be fighters dropping weight to try and seize an advantage.
It's fine just the way it is.  
1

#15 | 1395 days ago

 (Edited by johnsward66)
brianmc0331 wrote:
It really comes down to choice. If you choose to fight in the HW division then you choose to fight against potentially much larger opponents. Many smaller HW have transitioned to LHW who felt that would be better for them. Like I stated before no fighter that I am aware of has ever complained about fighting the larger HW's. As far as not having to cut weight, no fighter has to do anything they make that choice for the reason that they feel they have the advantage at a particular division. As long as there is any kind of division there will always be fighters dropping weight to try and seize an advantage.

If you've never heard this from "any" fighter you might want to widen your circle of acquaintance. This topic has been raised for years in many different contexts; from my son's karate dojo to his MMA trainer, to my High school wrestling coach, & all the way back to the days of my childhood in a boxing context back when Ali was still fighting.  To say "It's their choice to fight guys who are potentially much bigger' is completely beside the point & has nothing to do with whether or not it is just/fair/sporting. The whole idea of sporting competition is to have a trial of skill on a LEVEL playing field. If the other guy knows you have two aces up your sleeve & still decides to play it doesn't make you any less of a cheat!

Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  
2

#16 | 1395 days ago
EdSpeshel (+)

brianmc0331 wrote:
I understand that but its not just one fighter that is cutting it is the entire sport. I fight as a amateur at 170 and to get there i have to cut 5 -10 pounds if I fought at 185 i would be giving up 10 pounds or more so i prefer to fight at 170. The only way to make it to where people we not cutting would be to add many more weight classes and have them in 5 pound increments instead of 15 that way everyone would be able to fight at a more natural weight. That will not happen though and isn't very practical because people would still try to seize the perceived advantage and still cut to make lower weight classes.
You wouldn't be giving up that 10 pounds because everyone else would be in the same situation as you. They would also be fighting at their natural weight of 180 or whatever in the 185 division.
It's fine just the way it is.  
1

#17 | 1394 days ago

 (Edited by brianmc0331)
johnsward66 wrote:

If you've never heard this from "any" fighter you might want to widen your circle of acquaintance. This topic has been raised for years in many different contexts; from my son's karate dojo to his MMA trainer, to my High school wrestling coach, & all the way back to the days of my childhood in a boxing context back when Ali was still fighting.  To say "It's their choice to fight guys who are potentially much bigger' is completely beside the point & has nothing to do with whether or not it is just/fair/sporting. The whole idea of sporting competition is to have a trial of skill on a LEVEL playing field. If the other guy knows you have two aces up your sleeve & still decides to play it doesn't make you any less of a cheat!

I tried to be nice about this but you my friend are a moron. I got an idea how about we cut 4 inches of peoples arms because having a longer reach is an unfair advantage. Oh and don't stop their your legs your 6 inches taller so we have to shorten your legs to. Lets not stop at fight sports, you can only weigh 250 pounds to play offensive line anything over that and its just not fair. Boxing has tons of weight divisions, yes their is no cap on the HWs but the smaller faster fighters usually dominate but you are right the bigger ones hit to hard so that is unfair. Wrestling is in the same boat as boxing many different divisions all closer then the MMA classes. Neither boxing or wrestling is weight even an issue. To even mention weight in Karate competitions is plain stupid. Bottom line is EVERY fighter has the ability to hit the gym and put on weight just as every fighter can cut weight. You use weight as an excuse for who you feel is a better fighter getting beat. Ive been around plenty of competitors most of my life my circle is wide enough. Your right though Ali and Tyson two of the greatest boxers in history couldn't stop complaining about how unfair it was that they had to fight bigger opponents. Ya and Royce Gracie the Pioneer of MMA complained all the time as well.
It's fine just the way it is.  
1

#18 | 1394 days ago

 no way around it, we need a super heavyweight division or remove the 265 pound limit.  Hell, even high school wrestling teams have a weight limit of 275 pounds.  Its current setup lots of big fighters wouldn't be able to join up.  You couldn't have the likes of hong man choi or lots of up and coming toughman caged combat fighters.  I saw this one guy on tmcc that was a monster, 6'6 or something like that and 320 pounds.  He had lost weight training for the fights his natural weight is around 340.  He is a great fighter, but for him to get in to ufc, he would have to lose 75 pounds to make weight and lets face it that would be too much.
We need a superheavyweight division!  
2

#19 | 1394 days ago

 UFC is ground for real fighters, it does not matter if he's bigger or or smaller...
UFC should not be compared to any other sport, in UFC, figthers  are always looking for amazing matches, this makes them work!!!
remember what GSP said? "skill beats size, technique beats strength"
4

#20 | 1394 days ago

 (Edited by johnsward66)
brianmc0331 wrote:
I tried to be nice about this but you my friend are a moron. I got an idea how about we cut 4 inches of peoples arms because having a longer reach is an unfair advantage. Oh and don't stop their your legs your 6 inches taller so we have to shorten your legs to. Lets not stop at fight sports, you can only weigh 250 pounds to play offensive line anything over that and its just not fair. Boxing has tons of weight divisions, yes their is no cap on the HWs but the smaller faster fighters usually dominate but you are right the bigger ones hit to hard so that is unfair. Wrestling is in the same boat as boxing many different divisions all closer then the MMA classes. Neither boxing or wrestling is weight even an issue. To even mention weight in Karate competitions is plain stupid. Bottom line is EVERY fighter has the ability to hit the gym and put on weight just as every fighter can cut weight. You use weight as an excuse for who you feel is a better fighter getting beat. Ive been around plenty of competitors most of my life my circle is wide enough. Your right though Ali and Tyson two of the greatest boxers in history couldn't stop complaining about how unfair it was that they had to fight bigger opponents. Ya and Royce Gracie the Pioneer of MMA complained all the time as well.
Sir, you remind me of a 5 year old at a dinner party; who, when overhearing a conversation about the relative strength of the Chinese vs. the Indian army (That's the nation of India, not say, the Souix nation....et al.) can't resist injecting into the discussion, " I think G.I. Joe is the best soldier!" After the awkward silence is over & the child realizes he has not been praised for his insight, he gets mad, and runs screaming from the room, yelling " You DooDoo Heads!"      The arguments you employ are classic misdirection; setting up men of straw  then knocking them down. The purpose of having weight divisions is supposedly to have some equality between the competitors. By your line of (non)reasoning let's have Faber vs. Carwin @ UFC 104. You'll notice I've only been discussing the heavyweights; the 10 - 15 lbs of potential difference in the lower divisions is not a huge concern but the up to 80 lbs spread of the heavyweight division is, to anyone with even half a brain or an ounce of fairness.     By the way; good call Einstein about my being a moron. Most morons do hold multiple degrees & awards in intellectual & artistic fields of study. {Ding Ding Ding, "tell him what he's won Bob!" Additionally, I never said Ali complained, I said the discussion was going on in his time, & I did not mention Tyson at all. Also weight difference is a concern in the Japanese Karate style "Knock Out Tournaments" in which my son used to compete; that is what I was referring to. Sir, it's easy to speak about things you don't really understand, but remember the words of the Good Book; "Even a fool is thought to be a wise man when he keeps his mouth closed. One more thing; Royce was not a "pioneer of MMA ," his father & uncles were doing NHB years before he was even born. Even when Royce began to compete the situation was completely different than it is now. In those early days the Gracie family were the holders of what amounted to a secret weapon. Now everyone Knows about BJJ & you have that same "Invincible Royce" Loosing to people of his own size, when he used to triumph over people much larger.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  
1

#21 | 1394 days ago

 While I think it is ridiculous that someone like Lesnar can enter the Octagon for a fight at closer to 285 or 300 lbs, I don't see very many feasible solutions to the issue.  It is a decent idea for the fighter to forfeit part of his purse coming into the fight, but if they are as much as Lesnar outweighs guys entering the Octagon, then it won't really matter, as his unfair size disparity makes it unlikely he would lose anyways.  That would mean that the bottom line is that the fans would lose, which is the issue here. 

The fans deserve to see fair fights, and a 223 lb Randy Couture, while technically superior to Lesnar, is a 50+ lb underdog already (Just as Mir was at about 248 lbs) since all it takes is for someone that massive to lay on top of you and ground and pound for the fight to be over.  I like the idea of having a weigh-in a little closer to fight time, say even 12 hours before the scheduled fight, but am not quite sure how that would go over.  The weigh-ins have become as much of an event as the fight nights, with words exchanged, articles written, pictures snapped, and money being made. 

It's quite a quandary to have, but tradition may trump all here.  A Super Heavyweight division would be too thin and wreckless, and the current system allows too big a size disparity between fighters.  I think it stays the way it is, but there's no doubt something needs to be done to keep the fights fair.  After all, the 59-lb weight range in the class is pretty damn ridiculous.
It's fine just the way it is.  
2

#22 | 1393 days ago

 (Edited by johnsward66)
Raider_Dave wrote:
While I think it is ridiculous that someone like Lesnar can enter the Octagon for a fight at closer to 285 or 300 lbs, I don't see very many feasible solutions to the issue.  It is a decent idea for the fighter to forfeit part of his purse coming into the fight, but if they are as much as Lesnar outweighs guys entering the Octagon, then it won't really matter, as his unfair size disparity makes it unlikely he would lose anyways.  That would mean that the bottom line is that the fans would lose, which is the issue here. 

The fans deserve to see fair fights, and a 223 lb Randy Couture, while technically superior to Lesnar, is a 50+ lb underdog already (Just as Mir was at about 248 lbs) since all it takes is for someone that massive to lay on top of you and ground and pound for the fight to be over.  I like the idea of having a weigh-in a little closer to fight time, say even 12 hours before the scheduled fight, but am not quite sure how that would go over.  The weigh-ins have become as much of an event as the fight nights, with words exchanged, articles written, pictures snapped, and money being made. 

It's quite a quandary to have, but tradition may trump all here.  A Super Heavyweight division would be too thin and wreckless, and the current system allows too big a size disparity between fighters.  I think it stays the way it is, but there's no doubt something needs to be done to keep the fights fair.  After all, the 59-lb weight range in the class is pretty damn ridiculous.
It is tradition, certainly, but also it's  pure greed on the part of Dana & the UFC. As long as the Promoter sets the whole agenda then whatever will make the biggest profits will be the order of the day. Until there is some kind of national / international governing authority with some kind of real controlling power to limit the promoter's power MMA will never be a sport in the truest sense of the word, but rather, Just a "show". It's too bad really, because it pretty much leaves most of the fighters as little more than surfs / slaves. some of them may come out of it rich & famous while others may end up with their lives grist for the mill (Evan Tanner). Funny that the UFC intro should show a gladiator..... gladiators were slaves who fought for the enjoyment / enrichment of the masses & their masters too.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  
2

#23 | 1384 days ago

 johnsward66 wrote:

If you've never heard this from "any" fighter you might want to widen your circle of acquaintance. This topic has been raised for years in many different contexts; from my son's karate dojo to his MMA trainer, to my High school wrestling coach, & all the way back to the days of my childhood in a boxing context back when Ali was still fighting.  To say "It's their choice to fight guys who are potentially much bigger' is completely beside the point & has nothing to do with whether or not it is just/fair/sporting. The whole idea of sporting competition is to have a trial of skill on a LEVEL playing field. If the other guy knows you have two aces up your sleeve & still decides to play it doesn't make you any less of a cheat!

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it's fair to call someone a cheat, in this situation. Brock Lesnar is not cheating by being a massive human being.

What you're saying has some merit, but I don't believe that there are enough quality fighters to support a super-heavyweight division. I'd rather see Brock beat up on a few guys and force someone to eventually figure him out, than see weakened competition in multiple divisions.
1

#24 | 1384 days ago

 (Edited by johnsward66)
Pat wrote:
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it's fair to call someone a cheat, in this situation. Brock Lesnar is not cheating by being a massive human being.

What you're saying has some merit, but I don't believe that there are enough quality fighters to support a super-heavyweight division. I'd rather see Brock beat up on a few guys and force someone to eventually figure him out, than see weakened competition in multiple divisions.
I'm not saying a person is cheating, I'm saying the system it's self is a cheat & makes no logical sense in the light of even having weight divisions. 10 - 20 lbs. is an acceptable weight range for competitors to span; 65-80 lbs. is not IMO.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  

#25 | 1384 days ago

 johnsward66 wrote:
I'm not saying a person is cheating, I'm saying the system it's self is a cheat & makes no logical sense in the light of even having weight divisions. 10 - 20 lbs. is an acceptable weight range for competitors to span; 65-80 lbs. is not IMO.
It makes sense, only because there aren't enough quality fighters to support an additional weight class, so they have to draw the line somewhere.

#26 | 1375 days ago

 Pat wrote:
It makes sense, only because there aren't enough quality fighters to support an additional weight class, so they have to draw the line somewhere.
But don't you think that is a self fulfilling prophecy? In the beginning you had no weight divisions, but as they were created people of those size categories began to train because of the evident financial opportunity. 206 - 250 & 251 - 310 would allow people who now have a ceiling of  stone over their heads to begin to train with some perceivable reward in view. It might take a year or so but  before long the super (Ultra... Ultimate..?) heavy weight division could be a going concern.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  

#27 | 1347 days ago

 a lot of these guys like randy couture like fighting bigger guys, he could have dropped to LHW as many of these smaller HW's can but he prefers to fight giants because he has expirence with them and randy has done in my opinion best against brock besides frank's lucky submission
most of these giants simply arent skilled and any of these HW's who do make it actually have good talent and arent just big
just look at TUF season 2 finale
rashad evans (a smaller LHW) vs Brad Imes (an NFL player and one of the first gigantic HW's in the UFC) rashad beat him round by round
although just pre-fight weigh ins seem like a good idea, believe me all that will change is that a lot of fighters will show up dehydrated and their fights wont be as flashy or explosive just like in wrestling and youd end up with the same thing and same sizes just a little more dehydrated and tired at the fight which will just slow it down and make it a little more boring
the system works now, if i were to change it then i would base fighters weight class on their weight during their full training camp when their cut and in great shape but not cutting 20 pounds of water weight and some other weight besides that
but that brings up a million more problems

#28 | 1346 days ago

 hapkido_warrior wrote:
a lot of these guys like randy couture like fighting bigger guys, he could have dropped to LHW as many of these smaller HW's can but he prefers to fight giants because he has expirence with them and randy has done in my opinion best against brock besides frank's lucky submission
most of these giants simply arent skilled and any of these HW's who do make it actually have good talent and arent just big
just look at TUF season 2 finale
rashad evans (a smaller LHW) vs Brad Imes (an NFL player and one of the first gigantic HW's in the UFC) rashad beat him round by round
although just pre-fight weigh ins seem like a good idea, believe me all that will change is that a lot of fighters will show up dehydrated and their fights wont be as flashy or explosive just like in wrestling and youd end up with the same thing and same sizes just a little more dehydrated and tired at the fight which will just slow it down and make it a little more boring
the system works now, if i were to change it then i would base fighters weight class on their weight during their full training camp when their cut and in great shape but not cutting 20 pounds of water weight and some other weight besides that
but that brings up a million more problems
Weighing in at or just before the fight does pose a problem for someone who cuts way down from their normal training weight....but that's the point. By making the bigger/stronger opponent pay some price for fighting against a smaller fighter who will not suffer the reduced strength/speed of his bigger "cutting competitor,...you level the playing field back to something more like fair.  
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  

#29 | 1345 days ago

 thats true, what would be best is if everyone fought at their natural weight, it would be all the same people fighting each other just in different divisions, performances would probably improve and certain fighters who are very talented but bad at cutting weight would become more vibrant in their performances...but alas just as in wrestling, if anyone's cutting weight then everyone's gotta do it
thats just the way it is
1

#30 | 1340 days ago

 frank mir beat brock with aweigt deficet ,so weihgt is not the issue. the problem is there really are not that many fighters, let alone quality fighters that could match up pound for pound with brock, so leave as it is p.p.v. isnot sufering it is fine don't change things just because lesner is kicking everyones butt right now, he is not unbestable, and it will be a smaller ,faster ,more agile man that beats him. i.e. kindof like frank mir, so what do we do about anderson silva he wins no matter what weigt class he is in? 
It's fine just the way it is.  

#31 | 1312 days ago

 robrobrob17 wrote:
I really dont think it can be, with freaks of nature like brock lesnar and kimbo slice. You could have a superheavyweight division but let anyone one weight class under participate. That way there is no unfair advantage the guy underweight agrees to fight a heavier fighter.
In a title fight , if the underweight wins he has to defend against people of that division. . . . and like any divison he'd have to beat some guys to get a title shot.

Randy agreed to fight Brock so why is that unfair? Randy enjoys beating down big dudes. Why is Kimbo a freak of nature? He's 230! That's one of the smaller heavyweights and he doesn't have a 155 pounder's speed like Brock does.

#32 | 1312 days ago

 daddybair33 wrote:
frank mir beat brock with aweigt deficet ,so weihgt is not the issue. the problem is there really are not that many fighters, let alone quality fighters that could match up pound for pound with brock, so leave as it is p.p.v. isnot sufering it is fine don't change things just because lesner is kicking everyones butt right now, he is not unbestable, and it will be a smaller ,faster ,more agile man that beats him. i.e. kindof like frank mir, so what do we do about anderson silva he wins no matter what weigt class he is in? 
Silva would get destroyed by a good heavyweight. Mir, Lesnar, Carwin, Fedor, Rothwell, the list goes on and on. That's just too much weight to deal with. And note I said good heavyweight, not some chubby casino brawler.

#33 | 1278 days ago

 (Edited by Mrs_Tiffany)
Even though there would not be many fighters in the division to start a [ Super Heavyweight division]  would be better than it is now primarily because it would lure additional fighters to the UFC to participate, thus, making it safer  (and more fair) simply by supplying a better pool of fighters.

But then again what do I know?
We need a superheavyweight division!  
1

#34 | 1191 days ago

 Royce Gracie... Beat Everybody, Including People Twice His Size (Remembering Dan Henderson Sitting On  Him In The Original UFC) And He Still Beat Him.
The UFC has weight divisions?  

#35 | 1191 days ago

 Dream_Machine wrote:
Royce Gracie... Beat Everybody, Including People Twice His Size (Remembering Dan Henderson Sitting On  Him In The Original UFC) And He Still Beat Him.
dan henderson is a middleweight....and he never fought royce gracie.

#36 | 1191 days ago

 hapkido_warrior wrote:
dan henderson is a middleweight....and he never fought royce gracie.
I'm guessing he meant Dan Severn.

#37 | 1191 days ago

 hapkido_warrior wrote:
dan henderson is a middleweight....and he never fought royce gracie.
My Bad, I Think I Watched That When I Was Like12... Embarrassing.
The UFC has weight divisions?  

#38 | 1191 days ago

 Pat wrote:
I'm guessing he meant Dan Severn.
Thanks For That Catch.
The UFC has weight divisions?  

#39 | 1191 days ago

 Dream_Machine wrote:
My Bad, I Think I Watched That When I Was Like12... Embarrassing.
don't worry about it, everyone mixes up names every once in a while, especially with events that old.

#40 | 1190 days ago

 johnsward66 wrote:
Maybe next time they could put Lesnar in with a leukemia patiant or a recent prison camp escapee, that way he could have an even more dominant fight? Or, better yet, skip Brock all together & just send in some baby ducks to face a hungry tiger or two.
I find it kind of vulgar that you're comparing Randy Couture to a baby duck and Brock Lesnar to a tiger. Am I the only one who remembers that Randy cut Brock and won the first round?

#41 | 1190 days ago

 Are you sure that cut wasn't just a nick from shaving? LOL.... But seriously folks; surly you recognize hyperbole used to illustrate  a point?  Don't you ? .... Anyone? ....  Anyone?? I have nothing but respect for Randy Couture. I simply don't believe people should have to fight outside their species.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  

#42 | 1190 days ago

 johnsward66 wrote:
Are you sure that cut wasn't just a nick from shaving? LOL.... But seriously folks; surly you recognize hyperbole used to illustrate  a point?  Don't you ? .... Anyone? ....  Anyone?? I have nothing but respect for Randy Couture. I simply don't believe people should have to fight outside their species.
i see the hyperbole and i agree with you, but some guys like fedor and randy are very succesful at fighting the bigger, slower guys. Randy grew up wrestling in a weight class far above his natural one for the same reason, although it's true that against these newer, even larger opponents than ever (faster and more experienced than the older 'giants' too) randy can't hope to continue with that...atleast not at this age.

#43 | 1190 days ago

 johnsward66 wrote:
Are you sure that cut wasn't just a nick from shaving? LOL.... But seriously folks; surly you recognize hyperbole used to illustrate  a point?  Don't you ? .... Anyone? ....  Anyone?? I have nothing but respect for Randy Couture. I simply don't believe people should have to fight outside their species.
I understand the use of the analogy to get your point across but I just can't insult Randy Couture for any reason, whether in jest or not. That's just my stance.

#44 | 1190 days ago

 MacDoogie wrote:
I understand the use of the analogy to get your point across but I just can't insult Randy Couture for any reason, whether in jest or not. That's just my stance.
That's O K ...... I feel the same way about Jesus.     
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  

#45 | 1122 days ago

 to change the division would be going against the evolution of the sport. lesnar is a beast but it's only a matter of time before you have guys who can match up physically with him. carwin has a good shot at knocking him out. we don't really know his chin yet and carwin will test it for sure. i think to change it because of one guy is wrong. i'd like to see how lesnar would hold up against fedor!! that's what we need to see if he gets past carwin.
It's fine just the way it is.  

#46 | 1122 days ago

 too bad fedor will never fight in the UFC.

#47 | 1122 days ago

 B_Mak wrote:
to change the division would be going against the evolution of the sport. lesnar is a beast but it's only a matter of time before you have guys who can match up physically with him. carwin has a good shot at knocking him out. we don't really know his chin yet and carwin will test it for sure. i think to change it because of one guy is wrong. i'd like to see how lesnar would hold up against fedor!! that's what we need to see if he gets past carwin.
It's not just one guy.... Fedor, Cro-Cop, Nog, Cain, Couture, Kongo, Mir, etc..... et. al.    It holds true for all the smaller heavy-weights with frames that are naturally too large to comfortably cut to 205.   A 60  to  80 lb. range is just too big a spread!   P.S.  Quality mammoth athletes entering a division that is Much Too Large in range, can hardly be called a step in evolution.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  

#48 | 1063 days ago

 But is there enough fighters over  265 lbs. for a super-heavyweight division
We need a superheavyweight division!  

#49 | 1062 days ago

 littleice2 wrote:
But is there enough fighters over  265 lbs. for a super-heavyweight division
The division would be 246 - 285 or so, leaving heavyweight as 206 - 245.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  

#50 | 1060 days ago

 johnsward66 wrote:
The division would be 246 - 285 or so, leaving heavyweight as 206 - 245.
If I was Dana White and ran the UFC this is how I would add the Super Heavyweight Division and it would be any fighter over 265 lbs. Plus I would add 2 lower weight divisions at these weights 136 - 145 ( bantamweight) and 135 and under (featherweight)
We need a superheavyweight division!  

#51 | 1058 days ago

 littleice2 wrote:
If I was Dana White and ran the UFC this is how I would add the Super Heavyweight Division and it would be any fighter over 265 lbs. Plus I would add 2 lower weight divisions at these weights 136 - 145 ( bantamweight) and 135 and under (featherweight)
Over 265 Still leaves the heavyweights as a 60+ lbs spread ... And that's just too wide.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  

#52 | 1056 days ago

 johnsward66 wrote:
Over 265 Still leaves the heavyweights as a 60+ lbs spread ... And that's just too wide.
Check out the King of the Cage Web site
We need a superheavyweight division!  

#53 | 1055 days ago

 johnsward66 wrote:
Over 265 Still leaves the heavyweights as a 60+ lbs spread ... And that's just too wide.
But how many heavyweights do you see fighting at below 225 pounds? It rarely happens, if ever. So your "60+ lbs spread," while somewhat accurate, is really just hyperbole. In reality, it's only a 40 point spread, and a vast majority of heavyweights are 240 lbs or more. If fighters are that close to the lower limit of the division, then they should just cut the extra weight and fight at 205. I really think this is far less of a big deal than you're making it sound.

Also, consider that when you're talking about a 40-lb weight difference between guys at 225 and 265 lbs, it's really the equivalent of a 15-20 lb weight differential between smaller guys. Once you get over 220, 10-15 lbs doesn't mean much at all.

#54 | 1055 days ago

 Pat wrote:
But how many heavyweights do you see fighting at below 225 pounds? It rarely happens, if ever. So your "60+ lbs spread," while somewhat accurate, is really just hyperbole. In reality, it's only a 40 point spread, and a vast majority of heavyweights are 240 lbs or more. If fighters are that close to the lower limit of the division, then they should just cut the extra weight and fight at 205. I really think this is far less of a big deal than you're making it sound.

Also, consider that when you're talking about a 40-lb weight difference between guys at 225 and 265 lbs, it's really the equivalent of a 15-20 lb weight differential between smaller guys. Once you get over 220, 10-15 lbs doesn't mean much at all.
"Also, consider that when you're talking about a 40-lb weight difference between guys at 225 and 265 lbs, it's really the equivalent of a 15-20 lb weight differential between smaller guys. Once you get over 220, 10-15 lbs doesn't mean much at all."      Wow! Talk about hyperbole. Are  you saying that 40 lbs of  extra muscle is not a significant advantage if the combatants are over 205 lbs ?!!  What tortured "logic" did you use to arrive at this conclusion? .... Also, even if it were the equivalent of 15 - 20 lbs in the lower divisions, then take note that the divisions I'm proposing are 40 lbs wide ... right in line with your thinking.  No?          Also recall that the lower divisions  generally split at 15 lbs but the actual difference in weight is usually no more than 7 lbs after re-hydration so I find it hard to see how you can think these situations are at all equivalent.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  

#55 | 1054 days ago

 johnsward66 wrote:
"Also, consider that when you're talking about a 40-lb weight difference between guys at 225 and 265 lbs, it's really the equivalent of a 15-20 lb weight differential between smaller guys. Once you get over 220, 10-15 lbs doesn't mean much at all."      Wow! Talk about hyperbole. Are  you saying that 40 lbs of  extra muscle is not a significant advantage if the combatants are over 205 lbs ?!!  What tortured "logic" did you use to arrive at this conclusion? .... Also, even if it were the equivalent of 15 - 20 lbs in the lower divisions, then take note that the divisions I'm proposing are 40 lbs wide ... right in line with your thinking.  No?          Also recall that the lower divisions  generally split at 15 lbs but the actual difference in weight is usually no more than 7 lbs after re-hydration so I find it hard to see how you can think these situations are at all equivalent.
I'm not saying they're equivalent, I'm just saying that the difference isn't as atrocious as you make it seem. And coupled with the watering down of the larger divisions that would ensue, I don't think it's worthwhile. If someone is really THAT much smaller than Brock Lesnar, then maybe they should try cutting weight down to 205.
1

#56 | 1053 days ago

 johnsward66 wrote:
Over 265 Still leaves the heavyweights as a 60+ lbs spread ... And that's just too wide.
Well check out the champions page on the King of the Cage web site because the SuperHeavyweight Division starts at 266 lbs
We need a superheavyweight division!  

#57 | 1051 days ago

 ah yes, just move down a rank right? just drop from 240 to 205, piece of cake right? why not?
Try cutting 35 pounds (above 25 and your losing a lot more then just water weight) then re-hydrating in one day for the fight.
If you are going to try and argue against a super HW division then at least consider what you're saying.

Pat: There are actually lots of Heavyweights who naturally weigh around 225 and 230; but even for the 240 fighters it is difficult to compete with a monster like brock who is naturally around 290, he's fighting around 275-280 when he fights and if one of those 240 fighters is at natural fighting weight come fight night; then that's a solid 35 to 40 pounds of difference right there; which is certainly an 'atrocious' difference. That being said, many fighters (such as randy couture and fedor emelianenko) choose to fight with bigger fighters because they take advantage of their smaller stature, since most heavyweights are often much slower and have sloppier technique then their lighter counterparts. I used to see this all the time in wrestling, you have two types of heavyweights, the massive slow heavyweights and then some who use their speed and better technique to beat those guys. The same thing is going on here for the most part I would say, although a 60 pound spread (which turns into an 85 pound spread) seems a little extreme.

littleice2: clearly john is saying split the current weight class into one smaller one and a second larger one. Rather then picking up the system of a smaller and less prestigious organization, there are plenty of different systems besides the king of the cage one.
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#58 | 1040 days ago

 littleice2 wrote:
If I was Dana White and ran the UFC this is how I would add the Super Heavyweight Division and it would be any fighter over 265 lbs. Plus I would add 2 lower weight divisions at these weights 136 - 145 ( bantamweight) and 135 and under (featherweight)
Heavyweights would go up to 265 lbs. and Super-Heavyweights would be 265 lbs. and over
We need a superheavyweight division!  

#59 | 1040 days ago

 littleice2 wrote:
Heavyweights would go up to 265 lbs. and Super-Heavyweights would be 265 lbs. and over
This system doesn't do anything to address the heavyweight div. being too big a spread as it is now constituted.
Keep it 206 -265 but make it natural weight.  

#60 | 778 days ago

 johnsward66 wrote:
Maybe next time they could put Lesnar in with a leukemia patiant or a recent prison camp escapee, that way he could have an even more dominant fight? Or, better yet, skip Brock all together & just send in some baby ducks to face a hungry tiger or two.
 I was watching some fight where this huge black fighter.. 255lbs against 205... UFC recently.  a 3 rounder but if it had been a 5 round bout the 205LBer would have knocked out the  255er  due to stamina.  at times you couldn't see the 205lb fighter.  maybe they could go 205 to 215 or 220 and then up from there.  if Overeen??  and his brother ever fight in the UFC what do you do with those monsters?  that would be a fight..  lesnar and big brother overeen??   Lesnar has been working on his stamina and submissions so it would be interesting.  any doubt about  lesnar's ground and pound?   


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